S&W not slected for Military Contract

Think about it for a minute - who makes pistols in the US?

Glock's biggest production facility is in Georgia, not Austria
FN makes machine guns and rifles in South Carolina
S&W makes guns in Mass and other places
1911s can be made from imported parts, like Taiwanese or Canadian castings
SIG has a huge plant in New Hampshire
Remington makes their guns in a variety of plants in the US
CZ-USA is based in Kansas City and has an operating plant
Beretta moved to Tennessee
Browning makes their guns in Portugal or Japan but is HQed in Ogden and Montreal

The only big pistol company that isn't somehow making guns in the US is H&K. And I doubt H&K is getting any US contracts due to their issues in Germany with them selling guns to drug lords and how their main battle rifle isn't preforming up to expectations. On top of that, "American" brands aren't always 100% American.


H&K supplies the USMC with the IAR
 
That's cute but that ship sailed a long time ago. I mean american companies can even have foreign investors. A lot of times if the contract is big enough the vendor will build a US
plant to manuf the stuff or at least assemble it here.

Not that any of this matters anyways, because I doubt the DOD will be buying a handgun, they've only pulled this thing like 48 times now. I'll believe it when I see troops firing a P320, Glock, or whatever it happens to
be. Not a moment before.

-Mike


Seriously, i see these "new service pistol" trials almost every single year it seems like. And nothing ever gets changed anyway, the MIC at work.
 
The only big pistol company that isn't somehow making guns in the US is H&K. And I doubt H&K is getting any US contracts due to their issues in Germany with them selling guns to drug lords and how their main battle rifle isn't preforming up to expectations. On top of that, "American" brands aren't always 100% American.
The P2000 is the issued pistol for USBP and OFO (US Customs).
 
Seriously, i see these "new service pistol" trials almost every single year it seems like. And nothing ever gets changed anyway, the MIC at work.

It's so bad that I would literally charge an employee $5 or a customer $5 for talking about "new millutary small arms" in my gun shop, if I owned one.

It's like ****ing listening to 1877 Kars for Kids, except its the gun shop edition. [rofl]

"The millutary is going to...."

NO!

"The millutary is going to dump 5.56 or 9mm for (insert some caliber here that isn't used commonly by anyone).

NO!

HOW ABOUT NO, THEY'RE NOT, and THAT'S NICE BUT IS PROBABLY BULLSHIT. [rofl]

I guess it gives people something to talk about, but they might as well be talking about what guns they're going to buy when they play army in the woods. That at least is more realistic.

-Mike
 
I don't believe that Glock would have a real shot at a contract unless they added an external, manual safety for the government, which I'm sure that they could do fairly easily.
 
Remind me again how the M9 is bad enough to spend millions (billions?) to replace it? I shoot my 92FS better than any other handgun I own.
 
From what I have read this is all because the Berretta is an old model and because of the contract they can't just "update" to the newer Berretta's without putting it out to contract trails...

It's pretty much a given that they are staying with the Berretta (from what I read in the gun magazines) and they are just going to update to the newer ones with the rail, ext....
 
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From what I have read this is all because the Berretta is an old model and because of the contract they can't just "update" to the newer 92's without putting it out to contract trails...

It's pretty much a given that they are staying with the Berretta (from what I read in the gun magazines) and they are just going to update to the newer ones with the rail, ext....

The "M9A3" that Beretta came out in advance of this nonsense actually looks like solid improvements, and it has parts compatibility with the M9.
 
The "M9A3" that Beretta came out in advance of this nonsense actually looks like solid improvements, and it has parts compatibility with the M9.

And the M9A3 has already been rejected by this study.

I'm with Mike - they're engaging in a tax-funded circle jerk and aren't going to switch guns any time soon. Beretta offered them a modular version of the M9 and it wasn't good enough. They can't decide if they want to stick with the 9x19 or go .45ACP (which is almost as old of a caliber as 9x19). Austria, Britain, Australia, the IDF and a bunch more of our allies use Glocks and Glocks are now old technology, being designed starting in 1979. If they really wanted stopping power, they'd go with something more powerful than .45ACP however then they have the problem where you can't train everyone quickly and cheaply to shoot a more powerful cartridge like say .357 Magnum. They obviously aren't interested in smaller bore cartridges like FN's 5.7, so that's a no too.

They want the perfect pistol. The problem is that there can never be the perfect pistol. If you have Glocks, people will complain that Glocks aren't safe. If you have 1911s, people will complain that they lack capacity. If you have a 2011 (double stack 1911), people will complain about costs and reliability. Etc., etc., etc.
 
I do not see polymer framed pistol surviving as long as the beretta M9's have. no way. something like a glock would need much more frequent replacing, which would need to be factored into costs. also my understanding is that our M4's and M16's are not in great shape. i would favor re-building or replacing their rifles over wasting $$ on sidearms.

thankfully i'm not going into battle, but if I were I would take a quality rifle and so-so sidearm over a crappy rifle and wonderful pistol.
 
Honestly, the Glock is the best option.

Plus they'll have to move more production to the US, creating jobs, good for the economy.

It's a win all around if they go with the Glock.
 
I do not see polymer framed pistol surviving as long as the beretta M9's have. no way. something like a glock would need much more frequent replacing

Actual data does not support your statements.

When a Beretta wears out, you buy a new gun (The DOD isn't sending frames and slides to be welded and re fit.). When a Glock wears out, you replace a couple cheap stamped metal parts and slap it back together. Glocks service record is just better all around. You think PD's went to Glocks cuz they were more expensive? How many departments are carrying Beretta's?

I never had a problem with any Issue M4's I handled that weren't addressed by armorers easily. Where did you get the idea that our weapons are poorly maintained? Surely not from an Infantry soldier.
 
Actual data does not support your statements.

FYI data are plural.

glock frame is polymer. this is a matter of opinion as to whether they will survive. personally i believe that heavy use and abuse will lead to frames becoming inoperable. this is a different issue from beretta M9's will all steel construction. i'm not stating that either firearm is superior but simply that polymer frames may not be best suited for constant abuse. again, opinion here. it is what it is.

the british military began issuing G17 around 2013 if i'm not mistaken. ultimately will have to see how their experiment goes.
 
And the M9A3 has already been rejected by this study.

The M9A3 was "rejected" by the DoD because it was submitted as an "Engineering Design Change" under the existing M9 contract. Because the changes were based on the RFI that DoD issued leading to the MHS program, legal review deemed the changes were not appropriate under the existing contract and couldn't be considered an EDC. Doesn't mean that the DoD can't decided at the end to adopt the M9A3 as the most cost-effective solution.

SOCOM already did the reviews about this and determined that the M9 was an acceptable "general-issue" sidearm. The cost analysis was that the necessary logistics, training, and manpower required for a new sidearm didn't meet the expected gains.

BTW - this is a Congressional mandated program because someone whined to their Rep/Sen that their little boy had a bad gun in theater. WITH NO DATA TO BACK IT UP!!! Congress refused to recognize the SOCOM study.


Idiots.

Aloha
 
Right. Glocks are so fragile that police departments everywhere can't keep them running.

[thinking]

i wouldnt comsider LE use similar to .mil use. I never said glocks were fragile. This entire discussion is just butthurt when someones favorite pistol isnt cherished. Its ridiculous
 
.

the british military began issuing G17 around 2013 if i'm not mistaken. ultimately will have to see how their experiment goes.

The Austrian military began issuing Glocks in the 1980s. That "experiment" was successfully concluded decades ago.

The US Navy SEALs have replaced the P226 with Glock 19s.

USMC MARSOC is also reported to have ordered 1600 Glocks.

French Special Forces uses Glocks.

Norway's and Sweden's militaries use Glocks.
 
The Austrian military began issuing Glocks in the 1980s. That "experiment" was successfully concluded decades ago.

The US Navy SEALs have replaced the P226 with Glock 19s.

USMC MARSOC is also reported to have ordered 1600 Glocks.

French Special Forces uses Glocks.

Norway's and Sweden's militaries use Glocks.

I consider the NYPD on par with those militaries, possibly bigger. Clearly the glocks work just fine for NYPD.
 
FYI data are plural.

glock frame is polymer. this is a matter of opinion as to whether they will survive. personally i believe that heavy use and abuse will lead to frames becoming inoperable. this is a different issue from beretta M9's will all steel construction. i'm not stating that either firearm is superior but simply that polymer frames may not be best suited for constant abuse. again, opinion here. it is what it is.

the british military began issuing G17 around 2013 if i'm not mistaken. ultimately will have to see how their experiment goes.

Have you ever actually seen a Glock frame become inoperable from use or even really harsh abuse (except for KABOOMs)? I haven't. I've seen Sig frame rails crack though.
 
i wouldnt comsider LE use similar to .mil use. I never said glocks were fragile. This entire discussion is just butthurt when someones favorite pistol isnt cherished. Its ridiculous
Nor would I. I'd consider LE use of pistols to be far more abusive than military use.
 
I'm surprised the Sig entry is a P320. I was expecting the P229 or P226.

I'm not. The P320 is a newer design. It has a grip that can be adjusted to hand size. And I believe that DOD specified a manual safety -- neither the P226 or P229 has a manual safety. Also, I believe the P320 is cheaper to produce than the older P series guns.
 
FYI data are plural.

glock frame is polymer. this is a matter of opinion as to whether they will survive. personally i believe that heavy use and abuse will lead to frames becoming inoperable. this is a different issue from beretta M9's will all steel construction. i'm not stating that either firearm is superior but simply that polymer frames may not be best suited for constant abuse. again, opinion here. it is what it is.

the british military began issuing G17 around 2013 if i'm not mistaken. ultimately will have to see how their experiment goes.

Beretta M9's are not all steel. The frames are aluminum (as are the Sig P226/229). Most polymer guns slides run on steel inserts. It's an upside down world we live in.
 
I do not see polymer framed pistol surviving as long as the beretta M9's have. no way. something like a glock would need much more frequent replacing, which would need to be factored into costs. also my understanding is that our M4's and M16's are not in great shape. i would favor re-building or replacing their rifles over wasting $$ on sidearms.

thankfully i'm not going into battle, but if I were I would take a quality rifle and so-so sidearm over a crappy rifle and wonderful pistol.

I think youd have to define "great shape" first. Ive never met a milspec armorer that was not a zealot, myself included.
As far as polymer goes, the Steyr Aug has been around forever, Im pretty sure it has an excellent record for durability, Glocks have had the same. If I could have shed however many ounces of weight between my M9 and a G19, I would have in a second lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Nor would I. I'd consider LE use of pistols to be far more abusive than military use.

Absolutely no question
 
Temp's do make close to min. Wage ($12 I believe ), but only make up a fraction of the employees and work "unskilled " jobs. They get drug tested before they are hired as temps (I know I was). From what I have seen, people's experience can change dramatically depending on what department they work in.

I started as a temp (no mfg exp), did my time, got bumped into a paid training program, and now run CNC for a decent pay and awesome benefits.

Edit : Guy in comments says he's getting his info from a "30 year vet"... I can tell you from experience that some of those guys are the most amazing workers at the plant. Otherst are a living hell for everyone around them. I'd take his opinion with a grain of salt
 
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