S&W Recalls M&P12 Shotguns After 2 Cracked Barrels



Do you live in Mass? Are you a collector of fine, used, and abused Shields and M&P 15s and M&P 15-22s? Do you lust for a gun that can accept twenty mini-shells but still is tube mag fed? Do you love bullpup pumps? THEN THIS IS FOR YOU!!!!

Now we need to add "do you enjoy cracked barrels and poor quality?"

If you said "yes" to any of these questions, the M&P12 is for you!
 
Who knows, who cares? All I am saying is that S&W deserves credit for their commitment to reproducing the Keltec design and the Keltec user experience. [laugh]

First off, the Keltecs I've owned have actually functioned flawlessly. They are cheaply made for sure and subjectively ugly, but I've never actually had a functionality issue. I think they get a bad rap for being sh*t products just because they are cheap, but that has not been my experience. Secondly, I'm sure some people would care to know the right information. Or at least not get disinformation.
 
First off, the Keltecs I've owned have actually functioned flawlessly. They are cheaply made for sure and subjectively ugly, but I've never actually had a functionality issue. I think they get a bad rap for being sh*t products just because they are cheap, but that has not been my experience. Secondly, I'm sure some people would care to know the right information. Or at least not get disinformation.
Congratulations and thanks for your data point. There is no shortage of other data points that suggest the Keltecs are hot garbage composed of mostly plastic and drywall screws and their QC is legendary. I've never bought a Keltec and never plan to. To each his own.
I will say the 2 of 3 guns that I've ever had to send back to the manufacturer were both brand new S&W "performance center" revolvers.
 
First off, the Keltecs I've owned have actually functioned flawlessly. They are cheaply made for sure and subjectively ugly, but I've never actually had a functionality issue. I think they get a bad rap for being sh*t products just because they are cheap, but that has not been my experience. Secondly, I'm sure some people would care to know the right information. Or at least not get disinformation.
It is not that they are cheap, it is that a lot of other companies charge ridiculous prices. SW is one of those companies. Their quality has become sh*t, dssicions are made by accountants, you can see this on every single one of their sh*t Performance Center products.
 
First off, the Keltecs I've owned have actually functioned flawlessly. They are cheaply made for sure and subjectively ugly, but I've never actually had a functionality issue. I think they get a bad rap for being sh*t products just because they are cheap, but that has not been my experience. Secondly, I'm sure some people would care to know the right information. Or at least not get disinformation.

Keltec is CZ without good aesthetic sense (there, I said it... FIGHT ME). Both produce relatively cheap products compared to the competition, innovative designs, and have unobtanium models produced in limited numbers despite demand.

If Keltec could lure away some industrial designers from Magpul to refine the aesthetics, I think they'd be treated better by gun snobs.
 
Congratulations and thanks for your data point. There is no shortage of other data points that suggest the Keltecs are hot garbage composed of mostly plastic and drywall screws and their QC is legendary. I've never bought a Keltec and never plan to. To each his own.
I will say the 2 of 3 guns that I've ever had to send back to the manufacturer were both brand new S&W "performance center" revolvers.

Yes, I have a data point. You do not, apparently. Yet you keep on providing opinions about them. You don't have to like them. I barely like them (ugly as sin). But I will stick up for the functionality of the ones I've had in my one little data point. I'd also point out that cheap gun is cheap. That is to say, they are not chasing Sig or Glock. They are making very affordable firearms for the masses. So yes, you'll see screws and bolts, and their designs are as utilitarian as it gets. But knowing cheap gun is cheap going into it, how can they be faulted for it?
 
Keltec is CZ without good aesthetic sense (there, I said it... FIGHT ME). Both produce relatively cheap products compared to the competition, innovative designs, and have unobtanium models produced in limited numbers despite demand.

If Keltec could lure away some industrial designers from Magpul to refine the aesthetics, I think they'd be treated better by gun snobs.

As much as I'd like to, I don't have enough CZ experience to back this up. That said, I think Keltec is exactly where they want to be. They are comfortably in the budget spot. But because they occupy this "low cost of entry" space, they can take chances on radical designs because one is not exactly breaking the bank to buy one of their weird products like a Sub2k or P50 just for a range toy. If they poached a good industrial designer, I feel like that would affect their bottom line ability to be as radical with designs.
 
Ooof... knock out blow to my argument because other than the KS7 and KSG12 I don't think any Keltecs have military or police use.
I get your point about designs and whatnot, I would just add a disclaimer that CZ is able to generally execute the design and produce functional firearms that have been used by militaries since before Keltec was even founded. I have no direct Keltec experience other than firing a Sub 2k once.
 
It is not that they are cheap, it is that a lot of other companies charge ridiculous prices. SW is one of those companies. Their quality has become sh*t, dssicions are made by accountants, you can see this on every single one of their sh*t Performance Center products.

S&W got taken by the allure of most gun buyers never even firing the guns they buy. Since Sandy Hook I would bet that easy 60% of the guns they sell never even get
fired, or if that, more than a few times. So they balance this factor into their numbers game and allow for a higher than typical reject/defect rate. After all, why go for good QA if like 80% of your customers aren't ever going to really use the things or push you to it? Not to mention, the branding. Some rep or exec probably watched the fun phenomenon known as "smith acolytes. " These are the people who gush about how much better a BG380 is than an LCP (it's not) but its "because its S&W prohduct" so the exec is like "wow, these people are
really dense, we can get away with murder" [rofl]
 
I get your point about designs and whatnot, I would just add a disclaimer that CZ is able to generally execute the design and produce functional firearms that have been used by militaries since before Keltec was even founded. I have no direct Keltec experience other than firing a Sub 2k once.

CZ has a few dogs too, except they become easy to spot (omega P07, etc) and nobody buys them, and the world moves on.
 
Keltec is CZ without good aesthetic sense (there, I said it... FIGHT ME). Both produce relatively cheap products compared to the competition, i

No, it's not. Also I own like 3 P10s now, a P10S and two P10Cs. They're not that much cheaper than a Glock.

Keltecs problems are different. Keltecs problem is great ideas that fall about 10% short of the needed execution. Once in awhile they make up for these deficiencies, other times they just
double down on them..... lmao
 
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I get your point about designs and whatnot, I would just add a disclaimer that CZ is able to generally execute the design and produce functional firearms that have been used by militaries since before Keltec was even founded. I have no direct Keltec experience other than firing a Sub 2k once.

Ceska Zbrojovka Group, the holding company for CZ, has a $17B market cap. I think they have a little bit of a leg up on Keltec. For comparison sake, S&W has a $1B market cap. There's no way Keltec is even remotely in the same league as either, and as such would not be competitive in quality of guns or gun trials for military/law. But again, I don't think they want to be.
 
CZ has a few dogs too, except they become easy to spot (omega P07, etc) and nobody buys them, and the world moves on.
Yep, they're not perfect, but the general balance of their products is on the good side.

I own two S&Ws - both made before I was born - and have no intentions of buying anything made recently.

It has long been a theory of mine that the Shield gets touted so much on NES because the average MA gunowner (read: guys that think "the list" matters) are somewhat limited in their selections for CCW (although increasingly less so, thankfully) and thus need, either consciously or subconsciously, to feel good about owning/carrying one. Everyone wants to fap about what they've bought. I've shot three Shields and I would say without exaggeration that I think they're a POS.
 
S&W got taken by the allure of most gun buyers never even firing the guns they buy. Since Sandy Hook I would bet that easy 60% of the guns they sell never even get
fired, or if that, more than a few times. So they balance this factor into their numbers game and allow for a higher than typical reject/defect rate. After all, why go for good QA if like 80% of your customers aren't ever going to really use the things or push you to it? Not to mention, the branding. Some rep or exec probably watched the fun phenomenon known as "smith acolytes. " These are the people who gush about how much better a BG380 is than an LCP (it's not) but its "because its S&W prohduct" so the exec is like "wow, these people are
really dense, we can get away with murder" [rofl]
But even their products aimed at competitors are complete sh*t. But in that case it could be because they have no competition, so why make an effort.
 
It has long been a theory of mine that the Shield gets touted so much on NES because the average MA gunowner (read: guys that think "the list" matters) are somewhat limited in their selections for CCW (although increasingly less so, thankfully) and thus need, either consciously or subconsciously, to feel good about owning/carrying one. Everyone wants to fap about what they've bought. I've shot three Shields and I would say without exaggeration that I think they're a POS.

Also it was popular because skinflints. At one point they were basically giving away shields for like $299 or some shit like that, so everyone jerked off over it because price, and because flinting.

I didn't necessarily think the guns were that bad but the quality control is certainly lacking on many of them .

The plus looks better, but who knows. The one thing they got right was the trigger. Hopefully all M&Ps get that trigger and get rid of the rubber band.
 
Also it was popular because skinflints. At one point they were basically giving away shields for like $299 or some shit like that, so everyone jerked off over it because price, and because flinting.

I didn't necessarily think the guns were that bad but the quality control is certainly lacking on many of them .

The plus looks better, but who knows. The one thing they got right was the trigger. Hopefully all M&Ps get that trigger and get rid of the rubber band.
Yeah, I left out the skinflinting part, but that's definitely in play. Baby's first CCW for $299. Throw in a nice one-size-fits-most nylon holster and you're GTG. [laugh][laugh]
 
But even their products aimed at competitors are complete sh*t. But in that case it could be because they have no competition, so why make an effort.

For wheelguns there is only S&W + Ruger in the mass market space. And the new Python is a joke so that's out (at least until CZ fixes the issues etc).

The M&P 15 rifles arent too bad, but how can you f*** up an AR? you have to be really bad to f*** up an AR at this point. [laugh]
 
A few years ago I was at the NRA Show with a friend of mine. As we walked around the halls he pointed out that someone was having a contest with the first prize being a Keltec pistol

My friend: "I wonder what second prize is?"

Me: "TWO Keltec pistols."

Keltec design, Keltec kwality.
 
There 1911s are pretty good from what I hear, but as with ARs it's hard to screw those up.

My new 351C, which was a warranty replacement for my first 351C, was defective out of the box. They fixed it under warranty, but still.

Ever since they discontinued the all metal (3rd Gen) semi autos, their semi autos have been no different than anyone else's semi autos.
For wheelguns there is only S&W + Ruger in the mass market space. And the new Python is a joke so that's out (at least until CZ fixes the issues etc).

The M&P 15 rifles arent too bad, but how can you f*** up an AR? you have to be really bad to f*** up an AR at this point. [laugh]
 
First off, the Keltecs I've owned have actually functioned flawlessly. They are cheaply made for sure and subjectively ugly, but I've never actually had a functionality issue. I think they get a bad rap for being sh*t products just because they are cheap, but that has not been my experience. Secondly, I'm sure some people would care to know the right information. Or at least not get disinformation.

I did. I've owned several. The original P111 or whatever it was. The P32, which I had a problem with. Trigger wouldn't reset, IIRC. Fluff'n'buff on it and a return to KT and it was a very very very functional gun. P40. The PF9. P3AT, I think. (I think - maybe not.). That PF9 was just crazy light and annoying to shoot.

Oh and the fold-up 9mm rifle. Thing was a tack driver. Not very ergonomic. Didn't look like it would last in anything but range work. But it was accurate as hell. Would hit an 8" gong with regularity with the weak iron sights on it at 100yds. Funny was POA was the same at 10yds as 100. There was no holdover as I recall.
 
I did. I've owned several. The original P111 or whatever it was. The P32, which I had a problem with. Trigger wouldn't reset, IIRC. Fluff'n'buff on it and a return to KT and it was a very very very functional gun. P40. The PF9. P3AT, I think. (I think - maybe not.). That PF9 was just crazy light and annoying to shoot.

Oh and the fold-up 9mm rifle. Thing was a tack driver. Not very ergonomic. Didn't look like it would last in anything but range work. But it was accurate as hell. Would hit an 8" gong with regularity with the weak iron sights on it at 100yds. Funny was POA was the same at 10yds as 100. There was no holdover as I recall.

I ended up parting ways with my Sub2k a while back to fund an AR9 build, but I enjoyed it while I had it. The factory front sight post seemed like it could be a point of failure, but was a lot of fun at the range and I never did break anything on it. Always felt like something that was built in a post-apocalyptic world. Like a pipe gun from Fallout. Was also great that could bring it to the range in a backpack and look very inconspicuous.
 
The plus looks better, but who knows. The one thing they got right was the trigger. Hopefully all M&Ps get that trigger and get rid of the rubber band.

The plus trigger is S&W copying an Apex as closely as they could without patent infringement. The grip texture has been toned done from the 2.0 series to be the right balance of friction vs. shredding skin & clothes. The polymer frame is Ceracoated I think to match the slide now, no more two tone Smith grey. The crappy factory sites aren't red Loctite'd in or Gorilla pressed anymore into the dovetails, I was able to swap them out with a Wheeler sight press tool in a few minutes, damn front sight did slightly scuff the top of the slide coming out though, which I don't get because it didn't do that during the factory installation unless the slides are coated after the sights are installed (wasn't caused by the side press pusher but the underside of the front sight blade itself). Manual safety still sucks ergonomically (why they can't do this correctly if they are going to bother putting one on in the first place), but clicks positively in each position without any sponge. The latest generation of magazines has red followers to emphasize the chamber is clear. Seem to run ok, no different than previous generations of factory magazines. The 10 rounder magazines for the Plus don't have the pinky extension (what I think is going to be the biggest sales hurdle in capacity ban states), so unless you have girly hands like mine, you are shit out of a luck in MA.

10 rounds in the same footprint if not slightly smaller than a Ruger LCR is hard to beat. LCR is about half the weight, barrel length, and site radius though.
 
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