Sale to a dealer and the MA gun portal

[EJFudd]

Since many dealers won't share FFLs with customers to get guns shipped in to them, I could foresee some refusing to give you their MA Dealer #.

I have already run into that situation... and without that MA dealer number the portal won't accept the transfer.

 

[CrackPot]

I have already run into that situation... and without that MA dealer number the portal won't accept the transfer.

Like their ffl number the dealer number is, by law, posted on the wall. They can play coy but they can’t legally not post it. Failure to post is in fact criminal

Mgl 140 123 “...That the license or a copy thereof, certified by the official issuing the same, shall be displayed on the premises in a position where it can easily be read...”

 

[Len-2A Training]

Like their ffl number the dealer number is, by law, posted on the wall. They can play coy but they can’t legally not post it. Failure to post is in fact criminal

Mgl 140 123 “...That the license or a copy thereof, certified by the official issuing the same, shall be displayed on the premises in a position where it can easily be read...”

True but it can be high up at the ceiling or way back against the wall such as to be non-readable by customers. I've seen this in multiple shops. Perfectly legal too.

 

[CrackPot]

True but it can be high up at the ceiling or way back against the wall such as to be non-readable by customers. I've seen this in multiple shops. Perfectly legal too.

I guess it depends on how you interpret "easily be read". Because those strings of digits can be so harmful if someone learns them...

 

[Len-2A Training]

I guess it depends on how you interpret "easily be read". Because those strings of digits can be so harmful if someone learns them...

You can see that it is a license, just like the MA Sales Tax Vendor Certificate must be displayed as well . . . you just can't read the numbers which are indeed small. Nobody is going to gig you for that, it just won't happen.

 

[EJFudd]

Like their ffl number the dealer number is, by law, posted on the wall. They can play coy but they can’t legally not post it. Failure to post is in fact criminal

Mgl 140 123 “...That the license or a copy thereof, certified by the official issuing the same, shall be displayed on the premises in a position where it can easily be read...”

Next time I'm in there (which is not often), I'll run quick behind the counter and see if I can find it and copy down the number before he shoots me.

 

[EJFudd]

True but it can be high up at the ceiling or way back against the wall such as to be non-readable by customers. I've seen this in multiple shops. Perfectly legal too.

I guess it depends on how you interpret "easily be read". Because those strings of digits can be so harmful if someone learns them...

You can see that it is a license, just like the MA Sales Tax Vendor Certificate must be displayed as well . . . you just can't read the numbers which are indeed small. Nobody is going to gig you for that, it just won't happen.

Yeah, all kidding aside, unless he is willing to give me the numbers, I'm not going to be able to read them off the wall behind his counter (assuming they are there). My aging eyes just aren't that good anymore.

And without those numbers, I can't use the portal to report the transfer to that dealer. Catch-22. Guess I am another unintentional MA gun criminal.


ETA: If the State really expects us to report transfers to licensed dealers in this way, they are going to have to post a listing of MA dealer license numbers or allow us to enter a database to get those numbers... or, perhaps preferably, allow us to use the dealer's Federal FFL number.

 

[jasons]

Just don’t sell anything. Simple solution and you get to keep your guns.

I’ve never once said “wow, I sure am glad I sold that gun.” Wish I had kept them all.

 

[bostonasphalt2]

I'm ASSUMING they do, but I'm betting a there are a few guns on my "registry" that I haven't owned in years. Especially during the paper-trail era.

Thats a function of how the system works, not of paperwork not being done.

 

[apander]

After that boating accident how do you remember the serial #'s??

 

[Sevenrats]

It's not a crime to sell a gun to a dealer or another permitted person. If they commit a crime with that firearm there's no way that a previous seller can be held liable, with or without receipts, bill of sale, or FA10. The gun is literally out your hands.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Whenever I transfer a gun I offer to make a copy of the 4473 to the buyer. However, I don't do many, and I can see where it could be an issue in a busy gun shop. Jack.

 

[fmyspray]

Whenever I transfer a gun I offer to make a copy of the 4473 to the buyer. However, I don't do many, and I can see where it could be an issue in a busy gun shop. Jack.

Not sure i understand why making a copy of the 4473 would be a asset. The buyer is the one who would have filled it out. Do you mean you offer to make a copy of the buyer FA-10 for the seller of the firearm being transferred ?

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Not sure i understand why making a copy of the 4473 would be a asset. The buyer is the one who would have filled it out. Do you mean you offer to make a copy of the buyer FA-10 for the seller of the firearm being transferred ?

Well, if the transfer is from me or someone else, I give the seller a receipt if they want one, nothing else. I offer to give the buyer a copy of the 4473 for their records since the FA 10 , which they get anyway is just a joke.

 

[fmyspray]

Well, if the transfer is from me or someone else, I give the seller a receipt if they want one, nothing else. I offer to give the buyer a copy of the 4473 for their records since the FA 10 , which they get anyway is just a joke.

Obviously the transferor will receive a dated, signed counter slip stating the make, caliber and serial # of the firerarm that you took the gun in for transfer. However, i still don't see why a photo copy of the 4473 that the transferee (buyer) filled out is of any help. I suppose if you (the dealer) have already completely filled out the 4473 and included the NTN # it will at least prove the buyer had a NICS check done that day.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Obviously the transferor will receive a dated, signed counter slip stating the make, caliber and serial # of the firerarm that you took the gun in for transfer. However, i still don't see why a photo copy of the 4473 that the transferee (buyer) filled out is of any help. I suppose if you (the dealer) have already completely filled out the 4473 and included the NTN # it will at least prove the buyer had a NICS check done that day.

All true. A copy of the 4473 just helps to prove ownership if needed. Jack.

 

[EJFudd]

It's not a crime to sell a gun to a dealer or another permitted person.

Correct. The issue is that we've got a new responsibility to use the portal to report the transfer of a gun to a licensed MA dealer. We never had to do that before. In all but the one recent case noted above, I got an FA-10 from the dealer documenting the transfer to the dealer. I guess this is no longer an option which meets the law. Now, the transfer to the dealer must be reported by the seller/transferor via the portal... which is not a problem unless the dealer won't share his MA dealer license number with you.

Lesson learned: Get the dealer's MA dealer license number before you do the transfer or risk running afoul of the law.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Correct. The issue is that we've got a new responsibility to use the portal to report the transfer of a gun to a licensed MA dealer. We never had to do that before. In all but the one recent case noted above, I got an FA-10 from the dealer documenting the transfer to the dealer. I guess this is no longer an option which meets the law. Now, the transfer to the dealer must be reported by the seller/transferor via the portal... which is not a problem unless the dealer won't share his MA dealer license number with you.

Lesson learned: Get the dealer's MA dealer license number before you do the transfer or risk running afoul of the law.

Cite? Jack.

 

[EJFudd]

Cite? Jack.

See Post #16 above Jack. Also, check out gun transaction portal, first option:

"Massachusetts General Law c. 140, §§128A and 128B, requires all individuals who sell, transfer, inherit, or lose a firearm to report the sale, transfer, inheritance, or loss of the firearms to the Department of Criminal Justice Information Services Firearms Records Bureau (FRB). This on-line system will allow you to report the sale, transfer, inheritance, or loss/theft data electronically to the FRB."

"Personal Sale or Transfer: Use this option if you are a Massachusetts resident and you sold or transferred a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun to another person or to a dealer, and you conducted the sale or transfer personally or through an agent."

 

[fmyspray]

See Post #16 above Jack. Also, check out gun transaction portal, first option:

"Massachusetts General Law c. 140, §§128A and 128B, requires all individuals who sell, transfer, inherit, or lose a firearm to report the sale, transfer, inheritance, or loss of the firearms to the Department of Criminal Justice Information Services Firearms Records Bureau (FRB). This on-line system will allow you to report the sale, transfer, inheritance, or loss/theft data electronically to the FRB."

"Personal Sale or Transfer: Use this option if you are a Massachusetts resident and you sold or transferred a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun to another person or to a dealer, and you conducted the sale or transfer personally or through an agent."

That may be all well and good but your best insurance policy is simply to keep forever the dated receipt the FFL writes out for you. That way you can prove the disposition of the firearm was completed and done legally. We always write a counter slip for the acquisition of the firearm and give it to the seller. Countless times that receipt will save your ass in the event you have to prove to the authorities that you no longer own the firearm.

 

[EJFudd]

That may be all well and good but your best insurance policy is simply to keep forever the dated receipt the FFL writes out for you. That way you can prove the disposition of the firearm was completed and done legally. We always write a counter slip for the acquisition of the firearm and give it to the seller. Countless times that receipt will save your ass in the event you have to prove to the authorities that you no longer own the firearm.

And that's great! I approve! I'm just pointing out that it no longer satisfies the new requirement that the seller report the sale/transfer to dealer via the portal.

 

[Garys]

This is exactly what I've seen.

Even for a transfer to an in state dealer who is then going to transfer the gun out of state, they don't make it easy. I called FRB about that two weeks ago and the young man on the phone had no idea about it. He said he'd ask his boss when she came in and call me back.

It's like that fake country western song title, "When the phone don't ring, you'll know it's me."

From one of my students' experience, ONLY if you know the Dealer's Mass Dealer # (similar to our LTC #), otherwise it wouldn't let him proceed on the form. So no-can-do if you sell it to a non-MA Dealer (which is perfectly legal).

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Bottom line is that none of this shit means anything. Jack.

 

[Len-2A Training]

And that's great! I approve! I'm just pointing out that it no longer satisfies the new requirement that the seller report the sale/transfer to dealer via the portal.

Based on MGL passed by the legislature or another "interpretation" by EOPS/FRB of what you, me, etc. should do because they say so?

I didn't go and re-read the MGL but can tell you that only recently did this "new requirement" raise its ugly head.

 

[CrackPot]

Based on MGL passed by the legislature or another "interpretation" by EOPS/FRB of what you, me, etc. should do because they say so?

I didn't go and re-read the MGL but can tell you that only recently did this "new requirement" raise its ugly head.

go reread MGL. It is not ambiguous. Seller must report and there is no exception for going to a dealer.

Can't say when it was added to the MIRCS training, but it was certainly part of it 2 years ago.

Is it all a steaming pile? Yes. Is it likely to ever get you jammed up? No. At least people have info to make their own choice.

 

[drgrant]

go reread MGL. It is not ambiguous. Seller must report and there is no exception for going to a dealer.

The problem is the piece of law you cited is referential to S128A. Once you go down the S128A/B rabbit hole, you'll never escape.....

"The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public."

So the question is, does the reference to S128A effectively nullify the requirement in that circumstance? Particularly given that 129C references it explicitly.....

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Keep in mind that their brilliant online system will not let you file the FA-10 UNLESS you have a MA Dealer #. So sell it in NH or ME, etc. and the system "Will Not Let You Comply". I don't care what they are training dealers, it's a load of crap.

 

[drgrant]

Keep in mind that their brilliant online system will not let you file the FA-10 UNLESS you have a MA Dealer #. So sell it in NH or ME, etc. and the system "Will Not Let You Comply". I don't care what they are training dealers, it's a load of crap.

Well, that one's an easier argument, because at least in that case you can argue that the sale/transfer is not occurring in MA and is far beyond the legal jurisdiction of the state. The state can't tell you what to do, when
you're not in it, at least not most of the time.

-Mike

 

[EJFudd]

The problem is the piece of law you cited is referential to S128A. Once you go down the S128A/B rabbit hole, you'll never escape.....

"The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any person who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers a firearm, rifle or shotgun to a person licensed under said section one hundred and twenty-two, or to a federally licensed firearms dealer or to a federal, state or local historical society, museum or institutional collection open to the public."

So the question is, does the reference to S128A effectively nullify the requirement in that circumstance? Particularly given that 129C references it explicitly.....

-Mike

It's a nice try Mike. But S128 is about penalties for dealers who violate the law and non-dealers doing business as dealers. I don't see where it has anything to do with a seller's sale/transfer reporting requirement.

 

[EJFudd]

Well, that one's an easier argument, because at least in that case you can argue that the sale/transfer is not occurring in MA and is far beyond the legal jurisdiction of the state. The state can't tell you what to do, when you're not in it, at least not most of the time.

-Mike

This is actually a very telling point. According to the MGL, the use of the portal is intended to be a real time check of the legality of the sale or transfer. It is supposed to tell you whether to proceed or not proceed with the sale/transfer. Supposedly, the system checks license validity and then blesses or nixes the transfer. It apparently is intended to check the validity of the MA dealer's license as well.

For out-of-state dealers, it is apparently not set-up to do that check or MA just doesn't care... hence no such option.

It is also indicative of the interest of the state. The state cares about guns within its borders. The state does not care about guns leaving its borders. Further, it does not care about guns being left active (i.e., shown still owned) on our FRB records if those guns have left the state. And why would it care? We, as owners of record care... but as long as the gun is leaving the state, the state doesn't give a hoot if the FRB record happens to show a few extra guns being still owned.