SBR-ing, and Pre-Ban 'Proof'

[MoRivera]

Hello All,

Member of a few other groups for a while but first post here. Should have joined earlier since I'm a CT resident and there's so much info/discussion specific to our draconian restrictions. Forgive the length of my first post, but it's detailed. I know there have been other Pre-ban threads, but I think this is specific to right now.

Anyway, I recently picked up another pre-ban AR lower, my third, with the plans of SBR-ing one of them in light of the possible looming new rulings on pistol braced firearms (of which I have several as 'others'). Plus it will give me more options for future suppressed configurations without the minimum barrel length issues of an 'other'.

As of now I have a PWA Commando, an EA J-15 and just got an Olympic SGW 'stop sign' lower. As some may know, I first have to get an 'assault weapons certificate' from state police before applying to ATF, and for that I apparently need documented verification from the manufacturer of its date of production. Only thing is that none of these manufacturers are still around to provide that. Yes, there's a good deal of info online that lists dates of manufacture, but.....

- PWA (who no longer exist as a manufacturer) had all their info taken over by Lewis Machine and Tool who no longer have those records (contacted twice).

- EA Just closed shop for good earlier this year (and I'm majorly p-o-ed at myself for not doing it last year on that one), and no-one's available via phone.

- Olympic Arms doesn't even have a working website any more, plus they've got some issues with losing records in a fire as detailed in a link below.

The only way to verify the pre-ban status of these lowers according to serial # are online sources such as this....

PREBAN AR15 INFORMATION RESOURCES | PRE BAN AR 15

What is a Pre Ban AR 15? Why would I want a Pre Ban AR 15? What are Pre Ban AR 15 Magazines? If you need the answer to these questions keep reading.

ar15tactical.com

....and for EA at least they still have a website up, whose main page clearly indicates that my receiver is pre-1994....

EssentialArms.com is for sale | HugeDomains

100% satisfaction guaranteed on every domain we sell. 30-day, no questions asked, money-back guarantee. Easy, fast and convenient shopping.

essentialarms.com

....all of which has been fine for personal purchase/transfer, but if state police are going to require written/documented verification from manufacturer, will that be enough? I just got taken to the cleaners with today's going prices on pre-ban lowers, and although I won't mind having a third so that I can have at least one more compliant rifle, I took this plunge specifically to SBR one of them. So I'd rather not have to flip one and buy another that's a Colt which is even more $$$, and who knows if jut that brand will raise red flags in the process. I didn't realize that EA had closed up until now, and figured Olympic was still up as well, so it was a rather soul-crushing realization after the fact.

If I had to guess, the EA has the best chance of 'sufficing' since the info comes right from the horse's mouth on their website, if I can provide that when I go to the police dept. I'll try contacting someone ahead of time to see if it will work, like if I can send the link via email or show it to them at the time via phone or laptop. But I'm afraid that I'm just going to get stonewalled because it's got to be a piece of paper from the company or nothing. Anyone have some experience like mine specifically with an AW Cert. and providing online info as proof?

Thanks for your patience with the length of the post. I look forward to being part of this forum community.

 

[dcmdon]

You are mistaken.

If its pre-ban, then you just buy it like any other receiver. No certificate or other authorization is necessary. You do a DPS3 and whatever the other one is whose number esceepse me. I think its a DPS67. Get an approval over the phone and your are done.

You don't need to prove anything.

No documentation is needed.

The Olympic arms saga is well known among pre-ban aficionados. its been hashed out for literally DECADES. Since the 94 ban. If its a stop sign lower its preban. Period.

This decades old AR15.com thread has some good info.

Serial Number List :: (Rev 10 - 2/13/99)

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

 

[Marty McFly]

And as a follow up there are some records online as far as year of manufacturing for oly.

 

[MoRivera]

You are mistaken.

If its pre-ban, then you just buy it like any other receiver. No certificate or other authorization is necessary. You do a DPS3 and whatever the other one is whose number esceepse me. I think its a DPS67. Get an approval over the phone and your are done.

You don't need to prove anything.

No documentation is needed.

The Olympic arms saga is well known among pre-ban aficionados. its been hashed out for literally DECADES. Since the 94 ban. If its a stop sign lower its preban. Period.

This decades old AR15.com thread has some good info.

Serial Number List :: (Rev 10 - 2/13/99)

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Oh I know for just purchase I'm fine. My main concern is whether state police will require documentation for the assault weapons certificate that I'll need to eventually SBR one of these lowers, since ATF requires that for Ct residents. I really hope that I am mistaken and that it won't be an issue getting it approved for, of all things, the scarlett letter of designating it an 'assault weapon'.

It's just that a lot research I've done here and other places mention getting documentation from manufacturer. So I have me DPS-3-C from the original transfer and purchase, will that be enough to just bring with me to state police and print while filling out the application for the certificate?

Thanks so much everyone. I was also going to call ahead this Monday since many gun stores are closed and see if I'd be good to go before driving the 1.5 hours to get there.

 

[MoRivera]

And as a follow up there are some records online as far as year of manufacturing for oly.

Yes I saw that, I'm just concerned whether that would suffice for state police when I went to get an AW certificate, as opposed to a letter directly from manufacturer...even though that's fine for purchase/FFL.

 

[MoRivera]

Had a discussion with dcmdon, things seems lot clearer now. Will update on the process. Thanks a ton!

BTW, this was one of the threads where I got the initial 'information' on SBR-ing a preen....


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/axqv2d/a_guide_to_building_an_sbr_in_connecticut/


So I take it the parts in step 2-4 are not necessary or untrue?

 

[MoRivera]

....and then here (bolded part at bottom)....

...this is where my concern stems from, since I will be unable to get actual documentation on any of my prebans.

Account Suspended

What are "prebans" and who can purchase them?​

"Prebans" are generally considered to be any firearm manufactured prior to September 13, 1994. A "preban" firearm is not limited by the feature count limit or any other restriction with respect to so called "assault weapons". A "preban" firearm is not restricted or banned from; sale, purchase, possession or transfer. A "preban" firearm does not need to be registered as a so called "assault weapon" (Certificate of Possession) with the state.

Anyone who can purchase firearms can purchase a "preban" firearm.

Because "prebans" are still considered so called "assault weapons" they are supposed to be transported in the same manor as so called "assault weapons".

Note: There is disagreement by some who believe the "preban" firearm had to be a so called "assault weapon" prior to 9/13/94. Others believe that it doesn't matter when the "preban" firearm became a so called "assault weapon", all that matters is that the "preban" firearm was manufactured prior to 9/13/94.

Currently, DESPP has reinterpreted the "preban" statute (Sec. 53-202m) governing firearm manufactured prior to September 13, 1994. See this PDF. This reinterpretation indicates firearms that were once specifically banned by name, such as the "AK-47 Type", can now be; sold, purchased, transferred, and possessed provided they were manufactured prior to September 13, 1994.

Note: If modifying a"preban" into an NFA firearm, such as a short barrel rifle (SBR), one may have to apply to DESPP for a "Certificate of Possession". ATF is currently (as of 12/13/2014) requiring NFA applicants who are creating an SBR from a "preban" firearm to include a "Certificate of Possession" for the firearm with their application. One may also need to prove to DESPP the date of "preban" firearm manufacture via a letter from the firearm manufacturer indicating the firearm was manufactured prior to September 13, 1994.

 

[dcmdon]

Just to clarify something. The OP and I discussed this.

THERE ARE NO ASSAULT WEAPON CERTIFICATES TO BE HAD.

The state of CT stopped issuing them on 1/1/14. That was the deadline to register any post 94 ban AW in CT.
If its pre94 ban, then no registration is required and the guns can be bought and sold just like any other guns.
The guns that required the certificate were those purchased after the 94 (state of CT) ban and before the 2013 CT ban.

 

[SkeraMuninn]

If your worry is state police or police in general, don't expect them to actually know the in depth gun laws. So whether it's sufficient, documented, obviously preban, etc I don't think it matters because you're arguing against moving goalposts.

If you're worried about what will hold up in court (e.g. Arguing actual law), talk to a lawyer (but what's said above is pretty clearly beyond reasonable doubt imo).

 

[MoRivera]

Yeah I just want to get one of these SBR'd, so it will depend on what the ATF says when I apply. I hope they don't ask for one, because going by what dcmdon informed me of, they'll be asking me for something from DESPP that they don't do any more, and the ATF just might be like 'sucks for you, then'. Thanks again, I'll update as I go along.

 

[dcmdon]

If your worry is state police or police in general, don't expect them to actually know the in depth gun laws. So whether it's sufficient, documented, obviously preban, etc I don't think it matters because you're arguing against moving goalposts.

If you're worried about what will hold up in court (e.g. Arguing actual law), talk to a lawyer (but what's said above is pretty clearly beyond reasonable doubt imo).

You must be from MA. Your shadow fearing, sowing of fear uncertainty and doubt is counterproductive. If you don't know what you are talking about its best to just be quiet.

I'd suggest you stick with muzzle loaders. Just to be safe. Moving goalposts and all that.

You are right that cops don't know gun laws.

But CT cops know that there are lots and lots of ARs in circulation.
There are no moving goalposts. The law was passed in 2013 and . . well. that's it.

There is no need to speak to a lawyer. This has been well hashed out in CT.

Let me know if this adequately addresses your concerns:

 

[SpaceCritter]

Best option: move the f*** out of Connecticut.

 

[Hustler One]

Someone is being lazy at LMT. I did this a few years ago and have an email from them confirming the date of manufacture on my PWA. Theyre still in business so they just cant discard those records.

 

[MoRivera]

Best option: move the f*** out of Connecticut.

Oh trust me, that's very much in the cards. Will take a little while as I square some things away, and also my dad's in his 80's so I want to here while he's still around.

Y'know, the real asinine part about this is...and I alluded to this during my conversation with dcmdon....if indeed the ATF is asking for an ownership certificate as part of the application, it's bad enough that we have to jump through extra hoops and get something registered that the state doesn't actually require to be registered.....but the fact that it's being registered an an 'Assault Weapon' is the truly insulting part of it.

I'm so disgusted by the attempt at fear-mongering by calling it an 'assault weapon' when it's not even select-fire. that's why I call is a 'scarlett letter'....it's like some church requiring you to register as a 'sex offender' for having pre-marital relations, because of their outlook on sex and marriage....just to go to communion on Sundays. That's what really burns me up about this. And heaven help anyone who tries to use that against me, saying that I 'agree' because I signed up, etc....we're gonna have a problem.

 

[MoRivera]

Someone is being lazy at LMT. I did this a few years ago and have an email from them confirming the date of manufacture on my PWA. They're still in business so they just cant discard those records.

They told me yesterday that they handed all those records over to ATF (for whatever reason) and that they don't have them anymore.

Besides I'd rather have either the EA or Oly engraved instead of the PWA if I can choose.

 

[Hustler One]

They told me yesterday that they handed all those records over to ATF (for whatever reason) and that they don't have them anymore.

Besides I'd rather have either the EA or Only engraved instead of the PWA if I can choose.

Interesting. That makes sense then. Maybe call the ATF and make them do some digging if you really want the confirmation!

 

[MoRivera]

Interesting. That makes sense then. Maybe call the ATF and make them do some digging if you really want the confirmation!

Yeah I'm sure they'll get right on it

 

[apander]

I moved to Ma. in 1980 and I found "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is best and have a lot of tragic boating accidents.

 

[MoRivera]

I moved to Ma. in 1980 and I found "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is best and have a lot of tragic boating accidents.

Oh I've gotten to know a few charter captains that I shoot competition with, in case I need receipts. It got a little sketchy in Feb. when the whole hubbub with braces and the Q Honey Badger thing was going on, but I was assured that something was still running.

 

[BigGreen2000]

Just to clarify something. The OP and I discussed this.

THERE ARE NO ASSAULT WEAPON CERTIFICATES TO BE HAD.

The state of CT stopped issuing them on 1/1/14. That was the deadline to register any post 94 ban AW in CT.
If its pre94 ban, then no registration is required and the guns can be bought and sold just like any other guns.
The guns that required the certificate were those purchased after the 94 (state of CT) ban and before the 2013 CT ban.

Does anyone know roughly how many true “pre-1994” AR’s are in circulation in the US? Shops are getting $2500-$3500 for them here in Mass. I wanted to see how the supply stacks up to true ban-states

 

[MoRivera]

So Don, I know we went through specifics during our conversations and you were very thorough. But I keep digging up instances post-2014 where during a form 1 SBR application the ATF required an assault weapon ownership certificate for a pre-ban, even though the state itself doesn't. Here's another example...granted it's off Reddit, but it dates to just three years ago.

And this is what worries me, since I can't get any documentation from any of these companies PWA, EA or Olympic if that's what the state police require.

Sorry Don, again I know we went through specifics, but for whatever reason it seems that ATF requires this stuff regardless of whether it's legal/proper or not within the actual state, and heck I don't want to have to sue them over it or what not. As we discussed, I'm not trying to prove you wrong because you're right about what the law technically states. It just seems the that ATF doesn't give a crap when it comes to this detail that they require.

At the very bottom (at least where I quoted) you'll see that this person got one 3 yrs ago, which would be 2017-2018 by bringing the DPS-3-C for his pre-ban Colt with an actual certificate of manufacture date from Colt. IF I have to go this route, I really hope that the info on EA's website will suffice.


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/comments/8hnlwt/calling_all_connecticut_sbr_owners/

Calling all Connecticut SBR owners!

Hello,

I made a post a month or two ago about the process of turning a pre-ban AR-15 into an SBR in CT.

In CT, you must register your pre-ban with the state police as an assault weapon before changing it to an SBR.

I know that the Middletown state police office is the only one where you can do that type of registration at. Unfortunately, the front desk secretaries don't know much in depth about the requirements.

Every single time I call them, they transfer me to one of the detectives or officers who handle that type of paperwork. For whatever reason, the officers are never at their desk. I've left multiple messages with them and don't get any response.

I think my only option is to visit them in person.

My only question is: did any of you have to bring anything specific, other than the registration for your rifle?

One other thing: I don't have a barrel yet for my rifle, including the original. Do you think they will allow me to register it as an assault weapon if it is un-completed?

Thank you.

level 1
Bugsy190

· 3y

You will also need proof that your lower is preban. It doesn't matter that you do n ioll t have a barrel as the lower is what is registered, but you will need to have measurements to complete the sbr.


level 2
soconnoriv

OP· 3y

Visited the state police on monday, succesfully registered it. They needed a DPS-3 (registration) form, and a "proof of pre-ban" certificate from colt.
About 10 minutes later, I was given my assault weapon registration certificate. Went smoother than I thought. Next step is submitting the paperwork to the ATF!

 

[MoRivera]

Here's another conversation from very recently (one month), and it seems to mirror my situation exactly. And it seems encouraging....


View: https://www.reddit.com/r/CTguns/comments/nzuml9/preban_sbr_build/

Pre-Ban SBR Build​

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy a Pre-Ban lower. The company that makes it is out of business, but there is a serial number range is floating around online Here. Before I can form 1 this lower, I need a letter from CT saying that yes indeed it is a preban to send to the ATF. The company is no longer in business, so would middletown accept this website as proof that it is a pre ban? I don't wanna by the lower just to be told I can't SBR it.

pollopounder (u/pollopounder) - Reddit

level 1
pollopounder

· 1m· edited 1m

Deidre is pretty chillax with out of business companies. She knows serial number ranges and will just ask you to attach your DPS-3 to your application.

level 2
CaptainSolo80

OP· 1m

Awesome
1


level 1
300blkdout

· 1m

Call Deirdre at DESPP. She’s cooling when it comes to SBR AW certs. Try later in the day so you get her just as she’s about to leave.

level 1
hahaha7890123

· 1m

How do you actually get in touch with Deirdre?

level 2
pollopounder

· 1m

Literally just spam call the SLFU and ask for her
1

So I'm going to call this Monday and see if I can speak with her.

 

[dcmdon]

I can't determine what the ATF will do. All I can tell you is what the actual situation and the law is re CT.

1) The window to get a CT AW certificate of ownership closed 1/1/14. So you can't get one. Period.
2) Pre-94 ban rifles were never eligible for a certificate. (see letter above). And one is not needed. These rifles can be bought and sold like any other rifle. The only restriction is on transport, which we discussed.

So I don't know what to say if the ATF requires a certificate. I would think that the letter I posted above would work. But I can't predict how the ATF will behave.

If the state of CT is providing some kind of certification that a gun is pre-94 ban. Its not the same as the original AW registration certifications. The time when those could run is defined in the statute. It ended 1/1/14. This may be some other kind of letter. If this is the case, it is in response to the ATF's unreasonable requirements.

Either way, I think there is some confusion between what the state may be giving to people now and the AW registration certificate that was issued through 2013.

The ladies in the SLFU have always been pleasant to deal with. I consider them to be as much victims of all this crap as us. The state won't fund more people so they end up dealing with angry customers and things.

Per our discussion, you really just need to send in a Form 1 and see what happens. Obviously do it with the lower that you own that has the most documentation available showing it was made prior to 94.

 

[TLB]

These threads always piss me off. All these byzantine laws and regulations serve only to waste the time of law abiding citizens and potentially jam then up. They don't stop any real crime.

 

[dcmdon]

This is from the law that passed in 2013

(1) The person is eligible under sections 53-202a to 53-202k, inclusive, as amended by this act, to apply for a certificate of possession for the assault weapon by January 1, 2014;

There are no exceptions to this part of the law other than this:

(2) Any person who lawfully possesses an assault weapon, as defined in any provision of subparagraphs (B) to (F), inclusive, of subdivision (1) of section 53-202a, as amended by this act, on the date immediately preceding the effective date of this section, under the provisions of sections 53-202a to 53-202k, inclusive, in effect on January 1, 2013, shall apply by January 1, 2014, or, if such person is a member of the military or naval forces of this state or of the United States and is unable to apply by January 1, 2014, because such member is or was on official duty outside of this state, shall apply within ninety days of returning to the state to the Department of Emergency Services and Public Protection for a certificate of possession with respect to such assault weapon.

So unless you were in the military and out of the state. No certificates issued after 1/1/14

 

[dcmdon]

These threads always piss me off. All these byzantine laws and regulations serve only to waste the time of law abiding citizens and potentially jam then up. They don't stop any real crime.

I agree. So if the state is now issuing, lets call them letters, the problem is that the letters are being confused with AW certificates.

It can't hurt to call the DESPP and ask for something.

 

[MoRivera]

Yeah, as I mentioned before don, everything you've said is on point....but from the looks of it the ATF is just adding their own wrinkle (is that really a shocker these days?), and thankfully it looks as though we at least have the ability to 'comply' with the help of the state police. And my hope is that one of my pre-bans will qualify without actual documentation. It seems like it's nothing new with DESPP as long as we get in touch with the right person, so there's hope.

Yes you're right don, there's no place that officially states that actual 'assault weapons certificates' are available for anything outside of the time window in 2014 when new laws took effect for rifles post-1994, that was why it was so weird trying to look it up on the CT .gov sites...and pretty much why I started this thread to begin with because it wasn't adding up. So as you said, it might be a nomenclature thing since they're essentially achieving the same thing....letter of authorization or whatever, and unique to this situation. As we discussed, I think my EA has the best chance since it at least has a website that's still up and I took screen grabs of everything. The ones I'd provide are full grabs of my browser with the address displayed as well.





And TLB, hell yes...as I mentioned before the whole 'assault weapons' term is an insult....like submitting to an 'undesirable' tag. Whether or not they ever use it against you, it's ****ing bad enough that it ever happened, just out of principle. I don't mean to harp on the negative but hopefully it will also help others who are in the same situation as I am trying to SBR a pre-ban, especially with the possibility of further brace restrictions et al. The saving grace to this would be if it is just a 'letter of authorization' and you're not actually registered with the state as with the ACTUAL AW certificate.....but whatever, at this point!

I think some will agree that we're this close to just not complying altogether, but if this is the last window I've got to demonstrate that I'm a law-abiding gun owner...if that doesn't count IN my favor, then we're going to have a problem.




Anyway...what I'll do if I am able to get this is post up a scan of it with the proper redacted info so we have a look at what its actually is. Letter, form, what have you. Unless someone thinks that's a bad idea for security reasons or such.

 

[SkeraMuninn]

Your shadow fearing

No I'm not, the tldr of my post is "cops don't know gun laws in depth. Don't be worried about them, just follow the law".

If you misunderstood that, no need to grandstand or think CT cops are somehow better than MA or anywhere else blue.

 

[MoRivera]

If your worry is state police or police in general, don't expect them to actually know the in depth gun laws. So whether it's sufficient, documented, obviously preban, etc I don't think it matters because you're arguing against moving goalposts.

If you're worried about what will hold up in court (e.g. Arguing actual law), talk to a lawyer (but what's said above is pretty clearly beyond reasonable doubt imo).

Okay so firstly, the good thing is that this is nothing new for them, they've been doing this for a while. Now that doesn't mean that hypothetically someone who's relatively new there won't know the details, and who might just say 'no' because it's easier, but it doesn't seem that those are the people who are in charge of authorization for something so specific. It essentially shouldn't be any more complicated than taking your temporary state carry permit up there to get your full state permit. So there's an established process in place, we can be pretty confident in that fact, and there's been nothing to indicate that those goalposts are unstable or that it will be any different for me than it was for the last guy who did likewise.

Where my 'worries' lay were in the specific details of the requirements for the aforementioned process, in particular what would qualify as 'proof' of a preban receiver to THEM, since the manufacturers of mine are no longer in existence. Again, if they specifically require an official paper document/certificate from the manufacturer or whether the mentioned online sources of information will suffice. As don initially pointed out, and as we've hopefully clarified, this 'authorization/verification' requirement by the ATF of a preban that one is applying for SBR registration is independent of what the state itself requires for purchase or ownership. And that's where this confusion or muddiness is coming from. There's no place in CT law that even acknowledges this 'authorization', since the state's actual AW Certification is something that only applied back in 2014 to post-bans. You can't even find anything on the .GOV site referring to AW Certifications for prebans. And yet ATF its asking for it...or something almost identical to it.

The whole point being that there's nothing to worry about on my end in terms of ownership or legality...I'm already by the book just having it , and if this doesn't work out I'm in no more legal 'danger' than when I went in, no court or what have you for anything. It's doing the ATF form 1 for SBR that has this wrinkle specifically for CT residents, and in my case I'm concerned whether or not I can actually get that extra level of authorization for the reasons mentioned so I can complete what I set out for. So hope that's clearer...I'm already well aware of the laws regarding just my present ownership and my compliance, don't need to consult with anyone over that.

 

[MoRivera]

Here is the actual application/certificate that the state previously provided for 'assault weapons'...and as don indicated, this was only offered in 2013 through 01/01/14. Otherwise you were SOL if you had one and it had to be destroyed, turned in or sold. Form DPS-414-C.




As don also indicated, any such weapon manufactured before 1994 did not require this certificate to be bought or owned/kept. So no preban AR15 (as long is it isn't on their list-by-model no-fly list) requires this, nor is there any provision available to. So if ATF were to require a form DPS-414-C for your preban AR receiver, then they'd be asking for something that just doesn't exist. We can see in the 'instructions' that it requires proof or sworn affidavit that it was purchased before 04/04/2013, which you couldn't if you bought it more recently anyway. So clearly, form DPS-414-C doesn't apply to pre-bans. This is all there is, there's no 'DPS-414-D' or anything else that's for pre-bans that I could find anywhere, which is why don was pointing out that it was mistaken to think that an actual DPS-414-C is what you'd be applying for.

BUT...if ATF is still asking for something similar, with pretty much the same requirements of DPS-3-C and 'proof' but for manufacture date, for pre-bans when form 1-ing it for SBR (as anyone who's actually done it is saying), and DESPP is providing it....who knows if it will be this same DPS-414-C just 'repurposed' somehow (which I doubt), or just its own new official form we have yet to know about, or just a new letter. Yet to find out myself and if I do get one, I'll at least take a pic and post so we can see just exactly what this 'mystery authorization' is.

As I alluded to in private conversations with don, it's like an 'off the menu' item...that's very similar to an older on-menu item that's no longer available.

Thanks again to everyone who helped and shared thoughts.