Selling a C&R Rifle to a Non C&R Buyer?

[NEtracker]

OK,
I've never sold any of my C&R's.
The rifle I've listed in the Classifieds, an M48, was actually purchased in MA prior to getting my C&R License.

Can I sell this to someone (with FID min, filing an FA-10) in MA who does Not hold a C&R per BATF rules? And then of course, record it as outbound in the Disposition column.....

I've sifted through searches here, and BATF stuff, but I must have missed it somewhere....

 

[Len-2A Training]

You seem to have it straight.

MA does NOT recognize the existence of a C&R FFL, so for MA purposes, you treat it as any other private party sale.

For BATF, you log it in as being from "personal collection" (prior to holding a C&R FFL) and then log it out with all the required info as a Disposition in your BB.

 

[drgrant]

Len this begs the question.... so if one is a C+R, and they want to
sell more than 4 guns/yr in-state, then they either need to push the
other transactions through an MA licensed dealer, or they need to get a full
blown MA gun dealer license? (Which at that point, probably requires a
type-01, assuming you have enough political pull to get one at all in this
state.... ). ?

-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

If I sell a handgun, a non- C&R, does that, too, have to go into my bound book?? Somehow I'd missed that...

 

[MarkM]

My understanding is that only the firearms you purchase under the auspices of your C&R have to have a disposition recorded.

i.e. you buy a C&R eligible gun (gun 1) before getting your C&R, nothing is needed
you buy a C&R eligible gun (gun 2) using your C&R and record it in your book
you sell gun 1, no need to record anything in the book.
you sell gun 2, got to record it
alternatively if you dont renew the license then there is no requirement to record things any more (I think)

 

[JonJ]

If I sell a handgun, a non- C&R, does that, too, have to go into my bound book?? Somehow I'd missed that...

No, if it's not C&R it DOES NOT go in the book.

If you sell a C&R that you acquired prior to getting the C&R license, the disposition is entered into the BB with a notation that it was acquired prior to the license.

 

[MikeD]

Len this begs the question.... so if one is a C+R, and they want to
sell more than 4 guns/yr in-state, then they either need to push the
other transactions through an MA licensed dealer, or they need to get a full
blown MA gun dealer license? (Which at that point, probably requires a
type-01, assuming you have enough political pull to get one at all in this
state.... ). ?

-Mike

Good question....Does a FTF transaction where both parties are C&R licensees require an FA-10 transfer?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Please see my response above.

Once again. As far as MA is concerned there is NO SUCH THING AS A C&R FFL! Thus, EVERY transfer requires an FA-10 . . . NO MATTER how or where it was acquired.

 

[dwarven1]

No, if it's not C&R it DOES NOT go in the book.

If you sell a C&R that you acquired prior to getting the C&R license, the disposition is entered into the BB with a notation that it was acquired prior to the license.

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[dd]

Sale of C&R Rifle to non-C&R MA Resident

You seem to have it straight.

MA does NOT recognize the existence of a C&R FFL, so for MA purposes, you treat it as any other private party sale.

For BATF, you log it in as being from "personal collection" (prior to holding a C&R FFL) and then log it out with all the required info as a Disposition in your BB.

Len, I have a problem with the above. I see no requirement to log the sale of a C&R rifle that was owned prior to acquiring the C&R license for sale to a licensed MA resident. If I were to sell the same rifle to a C&R out-of-state, what you recommend WOULD be the way to go, i.e., log the rifle INTO your BB and then log the sale/transfer.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As a holder of an FFL of any flavor, BATFE makes the rules by which we MUST abide.

They state that if you own a gun that was C&R prior to possessing a C&R FFL, there is NO obligation to log it in your BB . . . until you go to dispose of it(assuming you are still holding a C&R FFL when this happens).

If a gun you own "becomes C&R" while you hold a C&R FFL, again you don't log it in until such time as you dispose of it.

In the above cases when you log it in you make the notation that you owned it prior to becoming licensed (C&R FFL) as "where you got it".

Also, no matter if you use your C&R FFL to purchase a C&R gun or not (some dealers refuse to take a C&R FFL), if it is C&R when you obtain it, it MUST be logged into the BB. The requirements are relative to the holder being licensed (C&R FFL) and NOT "how you obtained the gun".

Hope that clarifies some things. Most of this is in the Q&A in the back of the book that BATFE sends to all FFL holders and it is also online at the BATFE website.

 

[depicts]

I had a strange situation recently at a local gunshop. I walked in and there was a 1903 Hand Ejector, .32 caliber for sale. It was turned in to the North Attleboro police, and being nice guys, they brought the older woman who was getting rid of her deceased husbands collection, to the gun shop so she could make some money. (I really think this was a class act, I don't know many departments that would do that).

I said I wanted to buy it, and was told that since it wasn't on the Mass AG's approved list of handguns, it could not be sold to anyone unless they happened to have a C&R license. I thought they were joking. I have a LTC A ALP, and I couldn't buy a hundred year old revolver without a C&R!!!

Good thing I had just gotten my C&R, becasue I love these old Smith and Wessons. But I still think the whole transaction was weird. From what I undersatnd from LenS about this, the dealer should have filled out an FA-10, but maybe because it was a consignment sale he was acting as an agent for the seller and didn't have to.

You never know in Massahusetts. It's so screwed up I can't wait for Global Warming to raise the winter temperature in Vermont so I can move there without living like a snowman for 8 months of the year!!!!

PS, since this gun dates more than a hundred years old, maybe that has something to do with it. As an antique I know there are exceptions to the federal laws, still don't know about Mass.

Bill

 

[Len-2A Training]

MA - Antique = Born before 1899
Fed - Antique = Born before 1898

These are "fixed dates" and thus 100 years from now will still be the same.

If the dealer doesn't have proof that the gun was legally registered in MA prior to 10/21/98, he is rightly worried about getting nailed by the AG (MGL has criminal penalties to the dealer). That's why he didn't do the FA-10 and lets you do it as a Registration.

Fuzzy, gray area . . . but any liability is his as the dealer, not yours as the buyer.

 

[Amicus]

Sorry LenS, a minor correction

Sorry Len, Federal law states:

'(16) The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898 ...

18 USC 921 (16) (emphasis added)

Thus, Federal law has the same date range as Massachusetts.

MA - Antique = Born before 1899
Fed - Antique = Born before 1898

These are "fixed dates" and thus 100 years from now will still be the same.

If the dealer doesn't have proof that the gun was legally registered in MA prior to 10/21/98, he is rightly worried about getting nailed by the AG (MGL has criminal penalties to the dealer). That's why he didn't do the FA-10 and lets you do it as a Registration.

Fuzzy, gray area . . . but any liability is his as the dealer, not yours as the buyer.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I used "before" where perhaps I shouldn't have, but my intent and your quote are one and the same wrt Fed.

MGL Ch. 140 S. 121 defines antique as being made in (or before) 1899.

So I was right, there is a 1 year delta between Fed and state interpretation. The way I worded it could have been better.