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Semi-Auto going full Auto?
- Thread starter DSmith
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Which is why it will never change. (ETA: I am not personally criticizing anyone who makes this choice, but I need to point out that the natural consequence of this action is to breed an environment where nothing changes.)
Yes, this is unfortunately the source of the stupidity but it's not 1985 but more like 1965.
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yanici
NES Member
I just emailed Tom Lumb, Outdoor Director, and Al Croteau, the Indoor Director at the Andover Club. I asked, again, to allow full loads a on all revolvers at both indoor and outdoor ranges. They will need to advise the BOD as a whole, on this issue. Maybe if we get the ok on revolvers we can work on semi-autos in the future.
Feel free to follow my lead.
Feel free to follow my lead.
Ill send them a similar letter. Being a brand new member not sure if my opinions will hold much weight but its worth a shot. Not sure how long you've been a member yanici, but if you know other members with the same mindset maybe they can write as well.
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I'm not a member there at all, but being a board member at a different club I would recommend showing up at the next membership meeting in addition to sending the letter. Get a copy of the bylaws, read them, and use them to bring the issue to a vote. If nothing else you'll identify who to run against during the next cycle.
My advise find another club. I can see if he said that some rifles have been known to go full auto but a handgun. Sounds like an outdated rule or a club which is not really handgun friendly.
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this is going to be the main idea of the letter im going to write
Yeah, Cowboys did it because they were riding and working so there was a decent chance of getting thrown off your horse or the gun getting snagged as you worked. Unless your gun range has a Rodeo ring in it wouldn't really apply to you.
JuergenG
NES Member
This, that and that, too. Can also happen with factory new guns.
Yes, but they also did it due to the technology at the time. With the advent of transfer bars and other devices meant to prevent unintentional discharges, carrying a fully loaded revolver became a much safer proposition. If you have a very old revolver, or a faithful replica, you might want to consider the use of an empty chamber too, regardless of your rodeo proximity (however, I've been made personally aware of anyone who EDC's such a gun - this is typically a concern only for SASS shooters these days).
It appears from that article that the trial was a case of he-said/he-said. The guy that got caught said the guy that lent him the rifle knew it could fire automatically. That seems a bit different from having a weapon that accidentally goes full auto and to which you proceed to immediately take out of service and have repaired. If the owner knew it was capable of full-auto and then loaned it out, well that was a dumb thing to do. I'm not sure that was indeed the case, it also appears the ATF paid the witness for his testimony, which would seem a bit illegal. Its difficult to say what really happened based on a wikipedia article.
From the Milwaukee Sentinel article:
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namedpipes
NES Member
I wonder if a bore snake could be considered as bad as a shoelace?
Sent from my chimney using smoke signals.
There is a huge difference between admitting, in writing, "I once shot a gun that ran away and went full auto" and "I have a gun that will malfunction and shoot full auto." BATF believes #2 is possession of an unregistered machine gun.
And what is the point of your quote from the Sentinel? That it was okay to lock the guy up because he had a book? I see the Anarchist's Cookbook for sale at shows. Gitmo for anyone found with that one? And "M-16 parts?" This is the media and the BATF...they could describe an AR barrel or buttstock that way.
The case I pointed out may not be so simple as a malfunctioning gun, but it was, for all appearances, a malfunctioning gun on a public range that got the BATF's attention. They didn't know about the books or the parts (whatever the truth may be there) until after they decided to go after the guy. If you attract their attention and your gun is truly malfing, they might not prosecute, but by the time they decide that, you have already lost.
Smart money says that if your gun malfs and goes full auto, you should have it repaired immediately. Posting admissions of possession of unregistered FA is not a good idea IMO.
Call me paranoid and rely on the beneficence of Leviathan if you like.
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dcmdon
NES Member
The legal risk associated with a gun that runs away in full auto comes from not immediately rectifying it.
The guy who famously several years ago was witnessed with an AR or similar rifle that accidentally went full auto. Then he was witnessed again at a later date with the same problem.
There's really nothing wrong with admitting it here, if your followup action is to immediately rectify the problem.
I had a S&W 6906 go full auto on me in the mid 90s. It was loaded with 16 rounds and I intended to fire 1 slow fire shot. The firing pin jammed with about 1/8 of an inch of it protruding from the breech face. It effectively became an open bolt machine gun . . with no way to make the bolt stop.
It scared the crap out of me, but I held on and rode it out. I called S&W and they immediately mailed me a call tag which I used to send in the gun. No harm no foul.
With respect to the original poster's question. This is extremely rare. I'm the only one of any of my friends who has had this happen. The gun had fewer than 500 rounds through it at the time.
Don
The guy who famously several years ago was witnessed with an AR or similar rifle that accidentally went full auto. Then he was witnessed again at a later date with the same problem.
There's really nothing wrong with admitting it here, if your followup action is to immediately rectify the problem.
I had a S&W 6906 go full auto on me in the mid 90s. It was loaded with 16 rounds and I intended to fire 1 slow fire shot. The firing pin jammed with about 1/8 of an inch of it protruding from the breech face. It effectively became an open bolt machine gun . . with no way to make the bolt stop.
It scared the crap out of me, but I held on and rode it out. I called S&W and they immediately mailed me a call tag which I used to send in the gun. No harm no foul.
With respect to the original poster's question. This is extremely rare. I'm the only one of any of my friends who has had this happen. The gun had fewer than 500 rounds through it at the time.
Don
I am the son of a Class III FFL. I grew up shooting FA AR-15's, M-60's, Thompsons, MP40's, etc, in addition to semi-auto equivalents. And I have always been interested in how things work. As a consequence, I was allowed to disassemble and clean all of these weapons. What I can tell you is that a standard AR15 selector will not engage FA, even if the frame stop has been milled off (or it is a pre-ban with no frame stop). In order for the selector to get you FA operation, not only do you need a FA selector but you also need a special sear. Drop-in auto sears are easily made and easily installed in preban lowers or post ban lowers that have been appropriately milled to the correct specifications.
If the rifle fires in automatic mode when the selector is moved to FA, it has been intentionally altered. That is not a malfunction. You can slap a full auto selector into any AR on the planet and it will not fire FA unless it intentionally has other FA parts and pre-ban modifications allowing it to do so. I quoted the pertinent section from the Sentinel article but I recommend you read the rest of the article. It is still a little hazy but it does indeed appear that Olofson altered that rifle. Now, if the rifle fired FA while in the semi position, that is a different story. That is a malfunction caused by a damaged hammer. In the article, the ATF claims they took the rifle to the range, engaged the FA position and it fired in full-auto.
I agree entirely, but that does not seem to be what the Olofson case was about.
dcmdon
NES Member
Swamp Yankee,
Thanks for the specifics. Yeah. Some like to portray it like this was just some guy with a store bought AR that went full auto and next thing you know he is being prosecuted / persecuted. That was not the case.
Lesson of the story is simple. Don't put full auto parts in your semi-auto gun and then act surprised if it goes full auto.
If you want the full auto grin, get a $3500 M11 and put an $800 Lage Max11 upper on it. You will get the grin. And Richard Lage makes a .22 kit for it.
Uncontrollable laughter is impossible to stop after your first 30 round mag dump.
[video=youtube_share;Yj8rIBiGcyQ]http://youtu.be/Yj8rIBiGcyQ[/video]
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One other thing.
I just bought a slidefire stock . . . well because I wanted one. Its a stupid toy, but I wanted one. It works GREAT. And its legal . . for now. It even works on my M&P 15-.22
Thanks for the specifics. Yeah. Some like to portray it like this was just some guy with a store bought AR that went full auto and next thing you know he is being prosecuted / persecuted. That was not the case.
Lesson of the story is simple. Don't put full auto parts in your semi-auto gun and then act surprised if it goes full auto.
If you want the full auto grin, get a $3500 M11 and put an $800 Lage Max11 upper on it. You will get the grin. And Richard Lage makes a .22 kit for it.
Uncontrollable laughter is impossible to stop after your first 30 round mag dump.
[video=youtube_share;Yj8rIBiGcyQ]http://youtu.be/Yj8rIBiGcyQ[/video]
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One other thing.
I just bought a slidefire stock . . . well because I wanted one. Its a stupid toy, but I wanted one. It works GREAT. And its legal . . for now. It even works on my M&P 15-.22
This.
When I joined a club about 15 years ago, there was a prohibition against concealed carry and drawing from a holster. After a couple years of being involved, I ran for VP. After a while, I started advocating to drop that rule. It a number of years, but eventually we got rid of that rule.
Changing the rules can be done. It isn't fast. It isn't easy. There will be resistance from old timers who like things the way they are and who aren't into self defense. You will need to treat them with respect and to have patience and persistence.
Guys, you are a lot better off doing this sort of thing in person than via a letter. And you will have a whole lot better chance at convincing them if you start attending meetings and helping out at the club before you start such a campaign. Get to know the leadership and, more importantly, get them to know and like you.
Yes, this is time consuming, but that is the nature of politics and that is what you are engaged in. If you really want to get this rule changed, then you have to really commit to this. If you think that you can just write a letter and the rule will get changed then you are kidding yourself. Tradition-bound organizations don't change that easily.
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If that is the first time they see you at a board meeting, then you are wasting your time. You need to develop a personal relationship with the board members first. You need to get them to trust and respect you first. You need to be one of the guys who is involved at the club, doing work parties, volunteering your time.
If you are a member who they never see and you bring up this proposal out of the blue, then you are wasting your time. They know the existing rule. They like it. They believe in it. It won't be easy to change their mind.
Like it or not, public ranges are operating in a rather hostile environment right now and the communities that surround them are looking for excuses to shut them down. I'm not saying the particular rule you mention is wise or justified with regard to a good, safe, responsible shooter but you cannot forget public ranges are presently forced to craft their rules with the "yahoos" in mind.....where their actual problems will come from......not the safe responsible shooters. This is what they are contending with out there ( Funny Gun Accidents - YouTube ) and unless or until all that goes away or you can find an objective way to separate them from you at a glance, then they are bound to implement some seemingly "fuddish" rules.
