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Serious question: what will you do with unconstitutional orders

safetyfirst2125

safetyfirst2125

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LEO’s: If it comes down to this (and let’s hope it doesn’t), and you’re asked to enforce clearly unconstitutional laws or executive orders ... what will you do?
 
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Hypothetically, an alleged LEO who might be inclined to disobey unconstitutional orders would have to be a f***ing idiot to talk about it ahead of time, as those who would give those orders would be inclined to fire our alleged LEO in favor of someone who would carry out orders in spite of any quibbles about constitutionality or legality.

Hypothetically.
 
Ok well let’s just talk options and what LEOs have done across the country in scenarios where politicians have tied their hands or demanded they enforce their unconstitutional orders:

1) Call in sick (ie NYC)
2) Retire
3) (1) then (2)
4) Go along with it
5) Refuse and get assigned desk duty or demoted/fired

None are good options obviously. As unpleasant as this topic is I think it’s going to get much more prevalent as tyranny creeps in.

Before a law passes that mandates gun confiscation, which Congress in one bill has asked the ATF (local PDs will be asked to help out no doubt) to prepare for, I think LEO’s need to figure out what they will do.

Local Sheriffs can make a big difference I think. I recall the VA Sheriffs who stood up and made public statements to the effect they would not comply with unconstitutional gun confiscation orders. That sent a strong message to politicians and his dept. I don’t know how many of those we have out there but I sincerely hope it’s the vast majority, as I fear the day is coming when they’ll be tested.
 
I know I would refuse if put in that position. I'd just go up to people and be like

"hey there I'm here to enforce this illegal bullshit that the sniffer enacted, but here's the deal, I took an oath and it wasn't anything to do with this bullshit, and I'm not a nazi, so if anyone asks I came here already and you turned in all of your scary 30rd clipazines and shit, and that'll be the end of it, don't get caught doing dumb shit and get us both in trouble, unless of course it's "go time" in which case I'll be standing right beside you. Have a nice day."
 
moojpg2 said:
I know I would refuse if put in that position. I'd just go up to people and be like

"hey there I'm here to enforce this illegal bullshit that the sniffer enacted, but here's the deal, I took an oath and it wasn't anything to do with this bullshit, and I'm not a nazi, so if anyone asks I came here already and you turned in all of your scary 30rd clipazines and shit, and that'll be the end of it, don't get caught doing dumb shit and get us both in trouble, unless of course it's "go time" in which case I'll be standing right beside you. Have a nice day."
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Are you wearing a body camera while you’re doing this?
 
moojpg2 said:
I know I would refuse if put in that position. I'd just go up to people and be like

"hey there I'm here to enforce this illegal bullshit that the sniffer enacted, but here's the deal, I took an oath and it wasn't anything to do with this bullshit, and I'm not a nazi, so if anyone asks I came here already and you turned in all of your scary 30rd clipazines and shit, and that'll be the end of it, don't get caught doing dumb shit and get us both in trouble, unless of course it's "go time" in which case I'll be standing right beside you. Have a nice day."
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Refer to post #4. I think it applies here too because said persons benefiting from your kindness isn't guaranteed not to brag about it on Facebook.
 
BaldAssCat said:
Refer to post #4. I think it applies here too because said persons benefiting from your kindness isn't guaranteed not to brag about it on Facebook.
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I'm not an LEO, so I don't care, that's why I'm offering my hypothetical opinion, but I know damn well I've never bragged publicly any time a cop gave me a pass on something, I would hope anyone else would have enough common sense not to do that. I also know if I was a cop in today's climate, my salary wouldn't be my only means of supporting my family, I'd have something to fall back on, because I would absolutely be willing to lose my badge to do the right thing.
 
I recently retired, but if ever given the order to go out and confiscate guns, I would have argued the point furiously and try to speak reason. Failing that, I wouldn’t have quit, I simply would have said “ok” and gone out to “search for guns”. 8 hours later I would have returned to the station well rested and empty handed.

I figure it’s better to have a guy on the force doing nothing and being a wrench in the works than outright quitting and letting them hire a stormtrooper.

If it really came down to it, I would just refuse the order and let them try to fire me snd work it out in court. It is duty to refuse unconstitutional orders and the 2A is pretty clear in what it says. I don’t care what some black robed faggot thinks it means.
 
In God We Trust said:
I recently retired, but if ever given the order to go out and confiscate guns, I would have argued the point furiously and try to speak reason. Failing that, I wouldn’t have quit, I simply would have said “ok” and gone out to “search for guns”. 8 hours later I would have returned to the station well rested and empty handed.

I figure it’s better to have a guy on the force doing nothing and being a wrench in the works than outright quitting and letting them hire a stormtrooper.

If it really came down to it, I would just refuse the order and let them try to fire me snd work it out in court. It is duty to refuse unconstitutional orders and the 2A is pretty clear in what it says. I don’t care what some black robed faggot thinks it means.
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Thank you for that. I pray they’re all like you. Thank you for service.
 
In God We Trust said:
I recently retired, but if ever given the order to go out and confiscate guns, I would have argued the point furiously and try to speak reason. Failing that, I wouldn’t have quit, I simply would have said “ok” and gone out to “search for guns”. 8 hours later I would have returned to the station well rested and empty handed.

I figure it’s better to have a guy on the force doing nothing and being a wrench in the works than outright quitting and letting them hire a stormtrooper.

If it really came down to it, I would just refuse the order and let them try to fire me snd work it out in court. It is duty to refuse unconstitutional orders and the 2A is pretty clear in what it says. I don’t care what some black robed faggot thinks it means.
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This. This is the way to handle it. As my old man used to say, do nothing, but do it well.
 
safetyfirst2025 said:
Thank you for that. I pray they’re all like you. Thank you for service.
Click to expand...

Most are not.

Decades of research is very, very clear: if you're relying on an individual person's sense of decency to ensure that atrocities won't happen, you're going to be very disappointed. The vast majority of people in any population is likely to comply with the orders of those they view as authority figures, like it or not.

Note that the most full-throated poster here responding in the way we all wish every LEO would... is not even a LEO.
 
Some states are already passing laws that forbid such anti-2A activity, under penalty of arrest. Missouri has threatened to arrest Feds for this. Other states will be more than happy to join the Feds. I think we know which side will be chosen by Mass, CT, VT, and possibly NH. It may come down to leaving for 'Constitutional' states without RINO governors or face either confiscation or 'go time'. I'd put money on 'go time' not happening.
 
safetyfirst2025 said:
Local Sheriffs can make a big difference I think. I recall the VA Sheriffs who stood up and made public statements to the effect they would not comply with unconstitutional gun confiscation orders. That sent a strong message to politicians and his dept. I don’t know how many of those we have out there but I sincerely hope it’s the vast majority, as I fear the day is coming when they’ll be tested.
Click to expand...
MA sheriffs wouldn't directly be involved. Local chiefs hold all that power. I suspect the same in NH, but not familiar enough with the laws up here yet.

One difference of great significance is that sheriffs are elected and removal isn't a trivial process. Most police chiefs in MA and NH are appointed by the town's governing authority and can much more easily be removed for not following orders.

I will say that most officers that I worked with would blindly follow orders.
Mountain said:
Some states are already passing laws that forbid such anti-2A activity, under penalty of arrest. Missouri has threatened to arrest Feds for this. Other states will be more than happy to join the Feds. I think we know which side will be chosen by Mass, CT, VT, and possibly NH. It may come down to leaving for 'Constitutional' states without RINO governors or face either confiscation or 'go time'. I'd put money on 'go time' not happening.
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NH has a bill in process that would forbid following federal confiscation orders. IIRC it has passed one body already and is scheduled to be heard by the other body very soon.
 
Len-2A Training said:
MA sheriffs wouldn't directly be involved. Local chiefs hold all that power. I suspect the same in NH, but not familiar enough with the laws up here yet.

One difference of great significance is that sheriffs are elected and removal isn't a trivial process. Most police chiefs in MA and NH are appointed by the town's governing authority and can much more easily be removed for not following orders.

I will say that most officers that I worked with would blindly follow orders.

NH has a bill in process that would forbid following federal confiscation orders. IIRC it has passed one body already and is scheduled to be heard by the other body very soon.
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That would be fantastic, and a sign that the right folks are in control. Nice to hear.
 
The OP assumes they're addressing LEOs who know that an order in unconstitutional AND are conflicted about carrying it out. Lots and lots of LEOs won't give a second thought to following many unconstitutional orders. I'm not talking about being order to torture a confession out of someone. I do think (hope) that many would not go along with that. But where the line is thin or where there's even a gossamer excuse of 'good faith', I do expect most cops to fall in line.

Why? Because there's no downside. Short killing someone (think the former MPD cop who killed George Floyd) or other serious criminal charges, there's no downside. Even without QI, they're not going to go to jail, pay damages, or even lose their jobs.

Part of the problem is how we hire and retire cops. Once you're bought into the system, you don't have a lot of options. What happens when you're 35, have seven years on the job, two kids, a spouse, you're not qualified to do anything else, and you decide that you are being expected to do things that are unconstitutional, unlawful, or unethical?

I'm having this conversation with my very earnest, very 'black & white' nephew who wants to be a cop. He thinks he can thrive and do the job while doing the right thing and not looking the other way.
 
moojpg2 said:
sure, think it malfunctioned though, or i forgot to charge the battery. Plenty of ways around that. Most of them can just be turned off, and most small towns aren't using them yet.
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Smudge some vaseline on the lens like Christine Blasey Ford had on her glasses during the Kavanaugh hearings, they won’t be able to see a damn thing..
 
LEO's will not be the problem in the near future, we will have the Cartels running everything, per O'Xiden. Welcome to the new Venezuela !
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The Illegals streaming in are not going to be joining the local PTA's and Scouts, they will be forced to join, or form, local gangs. Local LEO's will not touch them and say it's a Federal issue, you on the other hand are a local issue. The Capitol Police will not be protecting YOU.
 
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