Shooting in CA

[drgrant]

SO... if the narrative will be take all firearms away from war veterans why did we never see this kind of violence before? Lets go to a club and shoot everyone that moves mentality after WWII??

Media didn't lionize spree shooters. Also in earlier wars a shitload more people died in combat, thus reducing the sample rate. Throw in more looney bin commitments, and less brain drugs....

 

[Choctaw]

The bullet responsible for killing a Ventura County Sheriff’s sergeant during November's mass shooting at the Borderline Bar & Grill was fired by a California Highway Patrol officer, authorities said Friday.

Sgt. Ron Helus – who was nearing retirement – was also struck by five rounds from 28-year-old gunman Ian David Long. But it was the sixth round, fired by a fellow law enforcement officer, that struck Helus heart and killed him, Ventura County Sheriff William Ayub said during a Friday press conference.

California Sheriff’s Sgt. Ron Helus, killed in bar mass shooting, gunned down by friendly fire: authorities

 

[67ray]

Was he wearing a vest? Still don't understand why they all don't always wear vests while on duty. Especially now there are effective lightweight models available.

 

[dennism]

Was he wearing a vest? Still don't understand why they all don't always wear vests while on duty. Especially now there are effective lightweight models available.

Soft vests are incapable of stopping pretty much all centerfire rifle rounds.

 

[drgrant]

Soft vests are incapable of stopping pretty much all centerfire rifle rounds.

Was the friendly fire shooter using a rifle or a handgun? Obviously if it was a pistol round it might have stopped it. The BG in this case also had a
handgun.

-Mike

 

[dennism]

Was the friendly fire shooter using a rifle or a handgun? Obviously if it was a pistol round it might have stopped it. The BG in this case also had a
handgun.

-Mike

Report indicates the friendly fire was from a rifle.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

This is tragic and disturbing in so many ways. Still, I don't understand Ventura County Sheriff Bill Ayub's comment that the accident was, in his view, "unavoidable." Nothing like this ever goes to plan and mistakes are going to be made. But the Sheriff's comment smacks of circling the wagons.

 

[67ray]

Soft vests are incapable of stopping pretty much all centerfire rifle rounds.

It doesn't necessarily have to stop the round. It could slow it down enough to prevent major organ damage.

 

[Al-Jim19]

It doesn't necessarily have to stop the round. It could slow it down enough to prevent major organ damage.

Soft vests do nothing vs rifle rounds. A slow .223 will zip right through with almost no energy lost whatsoever. Vests work when they stop rounds from penetrating.

 

[Waher]

This is why departments should issue plate carriers in patrol car trunks to put on over soft vests for SHTF scenarios. Not the best coverage, but better than nothing.

 

[67ray]

Soft vests do nothing vs rifle rounds. A slow .223 will zip right through with almost no energy lost whatsoever. Vests work when they stop rounds from penetrating.

Have you actually done this? What vest did you use? How did you measure the energy after penetration.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

This is why departments should issue plate carriers in patrol car trunks to put on over soft vests for SHTF scenarios. Not the best coverage, but better than nothing.

SHTF scenarios like fellow cops carrying rifles?

 

[Waher]

SHTF scenarios like fellow cops carrying rifles?

The police have demonstrated a knack for friendly rifle fire. So yes.

Remember that the wounded during the Watertown fiasco were friendly fire.

 

[Al-Jim19]

Have you actually done this? What vest did you use? How did you measure the energy after penetration.

I don’t have my resources handy, but a few years ago I purchased some armor based on my research reading online.

There are two main categories of armor: soft (like Kevlar or similar fabrics) and hard (usually steel or ceramic). Soft are designed to catch slow projectiles. These are common pistol rounds and shotgun projectiles. Higher speed projectiles will not be stopped by any wearable soft armor. Kevlar fabric offers no real protection against any rifle round I was able to find based on my reading and research. A 55gr .223 projectile (perhaps the most common rifle nugget being tossed toward body armor) coasts right through with no real resistance. The velocity is simply too great for any (wearable) soft armor to stop.

In order to protect against rifle rounds you must use hard armor, steel or ceramic primarily.

I skimmed the following and it appears to support everything I’ve written:
Could soft armor ever stop a rifle bullet? - The Firearm Blog

There’s a wealth of info available through google search and YouTube detailing the capabilities of soft armor, hard armor, and all the improvised variations thereof.

 

[Sweeney]

Have you actually done this? What vest did you use? How did you measure the energy after penetration.

A relatively blunt projectile will tend to be caught by aramid fibers and the force of impact spread over a wide area greatly reducing the pressure. A pointed projectile/object will tend to part the fibers and penetrate the material. This is why knives can penetrate the cloth and why it can be sewn.

 

[AntiHippie]

Have you actually done this? What vest did you use? How did you measure the energy after penetration.

I have. An old PPI IIIA vest with gallon water jugs and a GoPro. Highly scientific, I know, but it was for idle curiosity, not statistically reliable data. Soft armor is a joke to rifle rounds - at least 5.56 and 7.62. Stopped everything else I threw at it in the first couple layers - .38, 9mm, .45ACP, 12GA, .22LR (that myth about .22 and soft armor is laughable - it barely left a lead colored smudge on the first layer, let alone penetrating anything but the carrier. .300BLK screamed through the first layer but didn't penetrate the back panel.

 

[67ray]

I have. An old PPI IIIA vest with gallon water jugs and a GoPro. Highly scientific, I know, but it was for idle curiosity, not statistically reliable data. Soft armor is a joke to rifle rounds - at least 5.56 and 7.62. Stopped everything else I threw at it in the first couple layers - .38, 9mm, .45ACP, 12GA, .22LR (that myth about .22 and soft armor is laughable - it barely left a lead colored smudge on the first layer, let alone penetrating anything but the carrier. .300BLK screamed through the first layer but didn't penetrate the back panel.

That's interesting. Wonder what would happen if it were an up-to-date model? And how much velocity was measured after any penetration.

 

[slap shot]

Lots of good vids on rifles vs various soft body armor. Paul Harrell is always entertaining.


View: https://youtu.be/6JwlzR5nPFw

 

[Picton]

I have. An old PPI IIIA vest with gallon water jugs and a GoPro. Highly scientific, I know, but it was for idle curiosity, not statistically reliable data. Soft armor is a joke to rifle rounds - at least 5.56 and 7.62. Stopped everything else I threw at it in the first couple layers - .38, 9mm, .45ACP, 12GA, .22LR (that myth about .22 and soft armor is laughable - it barely left a lead colored smudge on the first layer, let alone penetrating anything but the carrier. .300BLK screamed through the first layer but didn't penetrate the back panel.

Can you post that?

Not that I doubt you; I just think it’d be cool to see.

 

[M1911]

That's interesting. Wonder what would happen if it were an up-to-date model? And how much velocity was measured after any penetration.

Soft body armor, old and new, doesn’t protect from rifle rounds. You need a steel or ceramic plate for that.

 

[AntiHippie]

Can you post that?

Not that I doubt you; I just think it’d be cool to see.

If I can find it. I can probably at least dig up the photos, video I’d have to sift through SD cards.

 

[AntiHippie]

That's interesting. Wonder what would happen if it were an up-to-date model? And how much velocity was measured after any penetration.

It was a well expired and thoroughly abused vest, and the most scientific measurement after penetration was a couple of us agreeing “yeah, looked about the same”. We weren’t so much looking for hard data as to satisfy curiosity.

 

[Al-Jim19]

On a related note, I was also not able to find any real evidence of expired vests failing due to their age or level of abuse. I purchased an expired vest and have no doubt it would do everything it is supposed to.

Fun fact: some AR500 steel plates also have expiration dates.

 

[AntiHippie]

I

On a related note, I was also not able to find any real evidence of expired vests failing due to their age or level of abuse. I purchased an expired vest and have no doubt it would do everything it is supposed to.

Fun fact: some AR500 steel plates also have expiration dates.

I agree. 5 years from in-service date is industry standard, but I suspect service life has more to do with abuse than age, and that it is VERY conservative. The fibers they make the layers in those panels with is pretty sturdy stuff. I just shot up a well expired heavily abused one because - well, that just makes sense. Really wasn’t to make any point, just a “let’s see what happens before it hits the dumpster” kind of thing.