SKS Question

[schnips]

Lets pretend for a minute that it is not a sin to bastardize an SKS by fitting it with a synthetic stock. If I had an SKS M or D model (one that can take AK mags) would I legally also be able to fit it with one of those Tapco stocks with the pistol grip and telescoping stock. I'm assuming that the SKS we are talking about is pre-ban, cuz I'm not sure that post-ban ones exist. I know that with ARs the lower counts as the gun, but I'm not sure how this would work with an SKS.

Edit: Assume that the AK mags are pre-ban as well.

 

[Boris]

I'm not 100% sure, but my impression was that most SKSs are not legal to buy if they were modified. Also, fitting a hi cap mag was a no no to do nor buy.

 

[Zarathustra11]

As long as you meet the compliance of 922(r) you would be able to add the Tapco stock, you would not be able to use hi cap magazines unless they are pre-ban, however, the Tapco 10 round mags would be fine.

 

[schnips]

As long as you meet the compliance of 922(r) you would be able to add the Tapco stock, you would not be able to use hi cap magazines unless they are pre-ban, however, the Tapco 10 round mags would be fine.

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that the AK mags in question would definitely be pre-ban as well.

 

[Kevlar]

...If I had an SKS M or D model (one that can take AK mags) would I legally also be able to fit it with one of those Tapco stocks with the pistol grip and telescoping stock.

No. You would be creating a post-ban assault weapon.

 

[schnips]

No. You would be creating a post-ban assault weapon.

but all of the actual working parts of the rifle would be pre-ban, the only part that I would be changing would be the stock...now I'm confused

 

[Kevlar]

but all of the actual working parts of the rifle would be pre-ban, the only part that I would be changing would be the stock...now I'm confused

The age of the the firearm isn't the only criteria used to determine it's status. It also must have been in "assault weapon" configuration on 9/13/94 to be considered a "pre-ban", as the term is commonly used.

 

[schnips]

The age of the the firearm isn't the only criteria used to determine it's status. It also must have been in "assault weapon" configuration on 9/13/94 to be considered a "pre-ban", as the term is commonly used.

oh, that's too bad, thanks for clearing that up. I'm guessing the same thing would apply to Saiga conversions in MA too

 

[flintoid]

oh, that's too bad, thanks for clearing that up. I'm guessing the same thing would apply to Saiga conversions in MA too

yes, the same rule applies.

I'd love to see a Saiga imported into the US before 1994, though. Good luck with that one.

 

[1919FAN]

I would say it probally would be legal Its no different than someone taking a preban AR and throwing a collapsible stock on it !

 

[schnips]

I would say it probally would be legal Its no different than someone taking a preban AR and throwing a collapsible stock on it !

Yeah, but common sense doesn't really work in Mass, I'd rather stay on the safe side.

 

[amb]

I would say it probally would be legal Its no different than someone taking a preban AR and throwing a collapsible stock on it !

Not really--a pre-'94 SKS still wasn't set up as an "assault weapon", while almost every pre-'94 AR I ever saw was. That's the key difference, what config they were in then.

 

[1919FAN]

Well I would side with You if he didnt mention that it was an M model that takes AK mags which pretty much puts it in the assault weapon class same as M1A

 

[schnips]

Well I would side with You if he didnt mention that it was an M model that takes AK mags which pretty much puts it in the assault weapon class same as M1A

Except that I haven't seen any Sporters or M models that don't have the bayonet hinge sawed off, so the only evil feature that they have is the ability to accept pre-bans.

 

[1919FAN]

Well I might have stand corrected the M model was an atempt to sneak them on to the market post ban by selling them with a low cap doublestack mag but the ATF caught on to them and were deemed prohibited by the ban conditions , But the D model would in fact be a true pre-ban weapon.

 

[ShadeWPI]

According to a letter issued by the BATFE during the "assult weapons ban" the "grandfather clause" of the Assault Weapons Ban applied ONLY to those firearms that where in prohibited configurations prior to the start of the ban.

That is, strictly by BATFE definition, it was prohibited under the federal ban to take convert a preban manufacturered firearm into a prohibitied configuration if it was not in a prohibited configuration prior to September 1994. So, under that definition, modifying a compliant SKS today to an "Assault Weapon" configuration would be prohibitted. The same would apply to taking a pre-ban AR-15 lower that what not in a prohibitted configuration on Sept 13, 1994 and converting it to a prohibitted configuration after Sept 14, 1994.

All that said, it should be the burden of the state to prove that the firearm was not a semi-automatic assault weapon prior to Sept 13, 1994, which is incredibly difficult and the BATFE no longer responds to or investigates inquiries about the status of a firearm with a manufacture date prior to Sept 13, 1994 since the federal ban has expired.

Of course, if you moved to New Hampshire, you wouldn't have to worry about Pre-ban, Post-ban or "hi-capacity" magazines either

 

[Kevlar]

...the D model would in fact be a true pre-ban weapon.

Nope, the "D" model is not an "assault weapon" either, as it only has one "evil" feature (the bayo lug):

(30) The term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means -

>snip<

(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a bayonet mount;

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher;

Consequently, it cannot be "pre-ban".

 

[william_munny]

Question though: if you're going to bastardize the rifle already, why not just spot weld the bayo lug to kill it, and then add the pistol grip stock? Only 2 evil features now.

To the NES law gurus - would this be AWB compliant?

 

[Kevlar]

Question though: if you're going to bastardize the rifle already, why not just spot weld the bayo lug to kill it, and then add the pistol grip stock? Only 2 evil features now.

To the NES law gurus - would this be AWB compliant?

No, two "evil" features makes it an "assault weapon".

The stock would need to be pinned, leaving the pistol grip as the one allowable "evil" feature.

Additionally, it would then need to be brought into compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(r).

 

[william_munny]

No, two "evil" features makes it an "assault weapon".

The stock would need to be pinned, leaving the pistol grip as the one allowable "evil" feature.

Additionally, it would then need to be brought into compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(r).

Ah yes, I missed the part about the stock being collapsible, I just re-read the OP. I've always counted the removable magazine as an AWB feature, but after re-reading the language of the AWB itself, I can see that it's one of the requirements for a rifle to even be counted as an "assault weapon", so my understanding was incorrect.

 

[BearArms]

Ehh jails not that bad. I say go for it [sarcasm]

 

[GOAL]

Here is some Mass law for you to reference.

Chapter 140; Section 131M. No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer for purposes of law enforcement; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.
Chapter 140; Section 121 “Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

 

[Zarathustra11]

No, two "evil" features makes it an "assault weapon".

The stock would need to be pinned, leaving the pistol grip as the one allowable "evil" feature.

Additionally, it would then need to be brought into compliance with 18 U.S.C. 922(r).

Kevlar, great information, but I'm still a little confused. What if the collapsible stock was the only 'evil feature' and the rest of the configuration was within 922(r) compliance (i.e meaning the gun had 10 or less imported parts)?

If the designation of 'Assault Weapon' only applies to an SKS with 2 or more 'evil features,' wouldn't he be okay with having the Tapco collapsible stock as the sole evil feature?

*Edit* Nevermind, I think I was able to answer my own question. Title 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(30)* (thanks Kevlar!) defines the term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means...a semiautomatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; [which includes thumbhole and “Dragunov” stocks]...

From what I gather, such a Tapco stock actually consists of both of the above, thereby making it a violation of the AWB.

 

[Kevlar]

*Edit* Nevermind, I think I was able to answer my own question. Title 18 USC § 921(b) defines the term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’...

It's actually 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(30), but +1 to you for actually looking it up!

...From what I gather, such a Tapco stock actually consists of both of the above, thereby making it a violation of the AWB.

Correct.

 

[Zarathustra11]

Here is some Mass law for you to reference.

Chapter 140; Section 131M. No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer for purposes of law enforcement; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.
Chapter 140; Section 121 “Assault weapon”, shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994, and shall include, but not be limited to, any of the weapons, or copies or duplicates of the weapons, of any caliber, known as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70); (iv) Colt AR-15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC; (vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12; (vi) Steyr AUG; (vii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and (viii) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as, or similar to, the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; provided, however, that the term assault weapon shall not include: (i) any of the weapons, or replicas or duplicates of such weapons, specified in appendix A to 18 U.S.C. section 922 as appearing in such appendix on September 13, 1994, as such weapons were manufactured on October 1, 1993; (ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that has been rendered permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a semiautomatic assault weapon; (iv) any weapon that was manufactured prior to the year 1899; (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable assault weapon; (vi) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition; or (vii) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

This is good information but, to prevent added confusion, I think it should be presented in the context that an SKS which has been modified to be in compliance with 922(r) is generally not considered an 'Assault Weapon' unless it contains two 'evil features' from the following list:

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; [which includes thumbhole and “Dragunov” stocks]

(iii) a bayonet mount

(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

(v) a grenade launcher

Therefore, if a rifle has a fixed magazine or only one of the items in the list it cannot be considered a semiautomatic assault weapon.

I know that some may then cite the models defined in Title 18 USC § 921(a), however, from what I've come across so far, the “Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models)” clause is too vague to be enforceable, and the ATF has previously approved the sale non “semiautomatic assault weapons” AR type rifles, including those made by Colt which have only one 'evil feature', a pistol grip.

So, for those of you (like myself) who are looking for a clear path through the 922(r) and AWB compliance, you can modify your SKS to be both in compliance with 922(r) and avoid the AWB (here in MA) as long as you do not have more than one 'evil feature' on your SKS and have 10 or less imported parts on your SKS. As always, you should do the homework yourself to see whether there are other considerations or legalities involved.

If I am incorrect in any what whatsoever, I would greatly appreciate corrections and I will edit as necessary. The last thing I want to provide is incorrect information, especially knowing how confusing this is already.