Smith & Wesson says sales fell 69.3% as market returns to normal after the pandemic

[LakeTrout]

People bought a shit ton of guns. Now everything they've got let is going toward heating their house. So what? Welcome to communism.

When oil is back under 3 bucks a gallon, then maybe we can say the market has returned to normal.

 

[SausageGuy]

I'm a big fan of their 15-22 magazines in my .22LR AR with magazine adapter. I have no experience with any of their other products but at least they have those going for them.

The 15-22 mags have been splitting apart at the Seam on me. I'm pissed

 

[snubnose]

'pity the fool' (like me) that only buys/sells and trades through a MA FFL

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

It has nothing to do with shit triggers or MA. Their CS/QC/QA has gone into the toilet on the bigger revolvers. The only thing they’re good at is selling stuff. (eg, at the dealer level) And once in awhile they make something innovative like the M&P EZ etc. But those are exceptions rather than the rule. Some corpo skinflint there obviously figured out how to cheapen manufacturing based off the shifting demographics of the market. Even 10 or so years ago US gun consumers would not tolerate what smith is doing now. I have a friend that had to send new guns back 2 or 3 times. The last one he got back from the repair literally had blasting media inside the action which made the trigger shitty and gritty like who lets that kind of stuff go out the door? That’s just retarded… (Basically they fixed his original problem but made the trigger suck in the process)

I already agreed with you on the revolvers, I’m not defending S&W on that.
1. Skinflint works both ways. Want better QC? Well, it’s not 1972 any more and to make something nice costs a lot more and there are few people skilled enough to do. A full size revolver built the way they once were would cost what, $2000 now? Better be willing to pay up. Zero reason S&W should be sending broken shit out the door, zero excuse for that.

2. NES is on an island with this, and yes it’s because their primary product is made shitty by the state of MA. S&W is crap is nothing new here and has nothing to do with current lack of QC.

I would buy the metal M&P, looks good and I would bet it runs like any other M&P. Nope, wouldn’t but a new S&W revolver as I’m going to give the Kimber a shot. And no way I think the S&W 1911 is something I would bother with, neither of mine were awesome 8 years ago… My Nighthawk should be done in January.

 

[drgrant]

I already agreed with you on the revolvers, I’m not defending S&W on that.
1. Skinflint works both ways. Want better QC? Well, it’s not 1972 any more and to make something nice costs a lot more and there are few people skilled enough to do. A full size revolver built the way they once were would cost what, $2000 now? Better be willing to pay up. Zero reason S&W should be sending broken shit out the door, zero excuse for that.

2. NES is on an island with this, and yes it’s because their primary product is made shitty by the state of MA. S&W is crap is nothing new here and has nothing to do with current lack of QC.

I would buy the metal M&P, looks good and I would bet it runs like any other M&P. Nope, wouldn’t but a new S&W revolver as I’m going to give the Kimber a shot. And no way I think the S&W 1911 is something I would bother with, neither of mine were awesome 8 years ago… My Nighthawk should be done in January.

Let me put it to you this way.... even 15 years ago Smith had a lot of QC problems but the way that they would follow up with you after the fact with service was great they would generally try to make things right and usually succeed in doing so.... that doesn't work the same way as it used to. You can forgive a company for turning out crap if they make it right after the fact and make you happy I get that.

NES is not on an island sorry you're fos on that one. Actually there are probably WAY more SW apologists on this board than anything else. (Make a thread making fun of the shield i dare you... jk)

Perhaps, A better statement might be that "gun enthusiasts are on an island" but Smith is not nearly as highly regarded by old school (pre 2013) gun enthusiasts anymore. Look at how poorly the shield plus got taken vs 365 and hellcat. Sure it was "late" . And honestly the gun is actually a good piece of hardware from smith that was designed to work properly out of the box.... but it shelf rots compared to 365s, hellcats, and 43X's... because a big part of the demographic buying those types of guns no longer takes Smith seriously anymore. I think with time sales will improve on that one but only because the rest of their demographic will start to find out it exists and will start buying up the guns.

Smith doesn't care because they have their acolytes and lots of noobs to buy their products. They know their brand power is incredible and even if they whore themselves out they still going to sell product. They are the jeep of the gun industry. An easy 50% of their sales are to "smith people". Maybe more. You know you have one of those in front of you when you got a guy who's all excited about getting a BG380 that he's practically salivating. These people only buy S&W exclusively or nearly exclusively.
The brand is that powerful. Hats off to them for having that kind of branding.

The only thing that causes that level of irrational behavior is branding/brand loyalty. Objectively it's probably one of the worst handguns in its class outside of the Diamondback 380 but the power of branding overrides any deficiencies at retail....

The only time I see gun enthusiasts buying Smith stuff is when the buying a product they can't get anywhere else (revolver, especially something larger ) or a product that Smith doesn't f****** that often like their AR-15s.

Like I'll probably buy another SW640 someday more than likely a 640 Pro but I don't have any doubt theres at least a 10% chance that it will be f***** up and I'm going to have to have it worked on... that's just how smith rolls these days... it's pointless for any of us to even actually complain about it past a certain point because you know they ain't listening anymore.

 

[drgrant]

FWIW I actually have Smith people who are close personal friends and no I don't make fun of them at all not now not ever but it's a real thing. That's what they like so i respect their preferences. Hopefully some more of those people will actually start badgering the s*** out of the company. Instead of consistently getting screwed and having to send shit back multiple times every time they buy a product.

@**DRB**
Also you mentioned costs.... in case you haven't noticed Smith revolvers cost a lot more than they used to pre covid either due to inflation or whatever. Their QC is so bad that honestly if the guns went up by a 1-200 bucks a pop or more and the problems disappeared that nobody would care and they would just pay the money. Problem is Smith also figured out that a large percentage of their sales go to "dust collectors." Sad but true. So they playing these stupid QC/CS skinflint games with their product instead of leveraging their branding and actually producing a consistently good product...

 

[EJFudd]

It's funny. This all started simple with DRB posting...

It’s funny, based on the primary location of many NES members, S&W gets more hate than on average due to nanny state triggers I suspect.

... and it's true. Forget about the rest of the country and forget about S&W's seriously QC-challenged revolvers. We are talking Massachusetts here and (I believe) the cheap plastic semi-autos manufactured enthusiastically by S&W to meet and exceed the dreaded trigger specification of Marsha and Maura. If "MA-compliant" S&W semi-autos haven't been a big factor in souring everyday common Ma**h***s on the S&W brand, nothing has.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

It's funny. This all started simple with DRB posting...

... and it's true. Forget about the rest of the country and forget about S&W's seriously QC-challenged revolvers. We are talking Massachusetts here and (I believe) the cheap plastic semi-autos manufactured enthusiastically by S&W to meet and exceed the dreaded trigger specification of Marsha and Maura. If "MA-compliant" S&W semi-autos haven't been a big factor in souring everyday common Ma**h***s on the S&W brand, nothing has.

The “Derpdy Derp” is and has always been strong with @drgrant . Reading comp and concise point making are not his strong points.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

FWIW I actually have Smith people who are close personal friends and no I don't make fun of them at all not now not ever but it's a real thing. That's what they like so i respect their preferences. Hopefully some more of those people will actually start badgering the s*** out of the company. Instead of consistently getting screwed and having to send shit back multiple times every time they buy a product.

@**DRB**
Also you mentioned costs.... in case you haven't noticed Smith revolvers cost a lot more than they used to pre covid either due to inflation or whatever. Their QC is so bad that honestly if the guns went up by a 1-200 bucks a pop or more and the problems disappeared that nobody would care and they would just pay the money. Problem is Smith also figured out that a large percentage of their sales go to "dust collectors." Sad but true. So they playing these stupid QC/CS skinflint games with their product instead of leveraging their branding and actually producing a consistently good product...

I have never seen someone consistently write so many words with points that have already been made or are not being argued.

 

[drgrant]

The “Derpdy Derp” is and has always been strong with @drgrant . Reading comp and concise point making are not his strong points.

Believe whatever you want. I know better.

I just dont think this "I think S&W sucks because of MA triggers" thing was ever really a thing. Sure people complained about that stuff but even moron newbs tended to be like "f*** this state" "f*** maura healey" "f*** coakley" etc. Not blaming S&W for it.

 

[EJFudd]

The “Derpdy Derp” is and has always been strong with @drgrant . Reading comp and concise point making are not his strong points.

I have never seen someone consistently write so many words with points that have already been made or are not being argued.

I try my best not to tick off Mods. I find my longevity on any given forum tends to last longer that way.

But in defense of Drgrant, he comes at this not from the perspective of an everyday common Ma**h***... but rather, from the perspective of a well-connected NES'r. Big difference in how you look at a whole lot of things. I get that.

As a life-long S&W aficionado, I am not pleased with a lot of things going on (or not going on) with the current S&W. Marsha/Maura triggers are just one of them. It's why I buy vintage S&W products and not brand new ones. It's sad, but it is what it is.

But the question was about Ma**h***s in general and why they are down on S&W products. Lots of reasons, but nasty MA-complaint triggers are right up there.

 

[drgrant]

I try my best not to tick off Mods. I find my longevity on any given forum tends to last longer that way.

But in defense of Drgrant, he comes at this not from the perspective of an everyday common Ma**h***... but rather, from the perspective of a well-connected NES'r. Big difference in how you look at a whole lot of things. I get that.

As a life-long S&W aficionado, I am not pleased with a lot of things going on (or not going on) with the current S&W. Marsha/Maura triggers are just one of them. It's why I buy vintage S&W products and not brand new ones. It's sad, but it is what it is.

But the question was about Ma**h***s in general and why they are down on S&W products. Lots of reasons, but nasty MA-complaint triggers are right up there.

I can see a noob level consumer not picking an S&W because of the trigger, but I dont think that alone builds some kind of weird distaste against the company. Most dealers like FS will tell the consumer that it was caused by the AG. The level of assault the AGs office gave to S&W and Glock was unprecedented, it was like other manufacturers didnt exist. So they went full retard in a vain attempt to not get slapped again. I think sure they probably need better attorneys, but at least their legal time isnt as f***ed up as Rugers was, who basically took the MKIII/IV away from peon level consumers in mass for years until eventually someone pulled their head out of their ass when GCAB wouldnt de-roster their guns. That was certifably insane....

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

Believe whatever you want. I know better.

I just dont think this "I think S&W sucks because of MA triggers" thing was ever really a thing. Sure people complained about that stuff but even moron newbs tended to be like "f*** this state" "f*** maura healey" "f*** coakley" etc. Not blaming S&W for it.

C'mon, a post without a ?

Again, viewed myopically through "NES = all of MASS" It doesn't, and you know better. Most Mass residents live by the list as god, even if NES members know better.

No idea where you are getting I'm a S&W fan boy, my last three purchases have been Glock, Glock, Sig, and my next two are Kimber and Nighthawk. That's what, $7k in guns that aren't S&W? My M&P's have been great and I still prefer them over a full size Glock. Hardly makes me a fanboy or apologist.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I try my best not to tick off Mods. I find my longevity on any given forum tends to last longer that way.

But in defense of Drgrant, he comes at this not from the perspective of an everyday common Ma**h***... but rather, from the perspective of a well-connected NES'r. Big difference in how you look at a whole lot of things. I get that.

As a life-long S&W aficionado, I am not pleased with a lot of things going on (or not going on) with the current S&W. Marsha/Maura triggers are just one of them. It's why I buy vintage S&W products and not brand new ones. It's sad, but it is what it is.

But the question was about Ma**h***s in general and why they are down on S&W products. Lots of reasons, but nasty MA-complaint triggers are right up there.

I've been here almost 14 years I think without so much as a warning. If they want to ban me for pointing out the obvious, I'm ok with that and it's well within their right to do so. Seems silly to me, as I'm literally agreeing with most of what he is saying, just adding to the point by what I know based on my experience and connections.

I do / have done marketing for a few shops, one in new england that's not exactly small ($5mil in gun inventory alone) and know closely of other larger shops and can say for a fact I know the bias in his argument

 

[drgrant]

C'mon, a post without a ?

Again, viewed myopically through "NES = all of MASS" It doesn't, and you know better. Most Mass residents live by the list as god, even if NES members know better.

I still dont think the pant shitters / one ore two time buyers (after that you figure it out, really maybe not 15 yrs ago, but now, sure) that are glued to the list and MA skus have some irrational hate of S&W. Is there a product preference? sure.... but when the other products are better in other ways its hard to discern buyer motives. Like nobody is going to buy a Shield Plus over a P365 list or no list.

Maybe you are right and I'm giving the consumers too much credit. and MA pant shitters are bog sniffing troglodytes that cant even use velcro shoes and have to think to breathe or
something.

"I BOT A SHIELD AND THE TRIGGER SUCKS CUZ ITS 15 POUNDZ DA GUY AT THE GUN STOAR SAID DEY ALL LIKE DAT BUT I DOWANNA PAY $100 TA FIX IT OOG ANGRY S&W BAD!!!!!""
"OOG BORED!!!!!"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRSGYmCl58

No idea where you are getting I'm a S&W fan boy, my last three purchases have been Glock, Glock, Sig, and my next two are Kimber and Nighthawk. That's what, $7k in guns that aren't S&W? My M&P's have been great and I still prefer them over a full size Glock. Hardly makes me a fanboy or apologist.

I never said YOU were an aplogist, I just said most people on this board probably are. And you can take that to the bank. I got shit on a few years or so ago around here for crapping on the Shield....

Also.... If MA people hated smith they sure didnt seem to have a problem buying metric tons of them. Until Sig showed up they were probably #1 striker fired gun in MA at boring-level retail.

 

[Rate_of_Twist]

I still dont think the pant shitters / one ore two time buyers (after that you figure it out, really maybe not 15 yrs ago, but now, sure) that are glued to the list and MA skus have some irrational hate of S&W. Is there a product preference? sure.... but when the other products are better in other ways its hard to discern buyer motives. Like nobody is going to buy a Shield Plus over a P365 list or no list.

Maybe you are right and I'm giving the consumers too much credit. and MA pant shitters are bog sniffing troglodytes that cant even use velcro shoes and have to think to breathe or
something.

"I BOT A SHIELD AND THE TRIGGER SUCKS CUZ ITS 15 POUNDZ DA GUY AT THE GUN STOAR SAID DEY ALL LIKE DAT BUT I DOWANNA PAY $100 TA FIX IT OOG ANGRY S&W BAD!!!!!""
"OOG BORED!!!!!"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmRSGYmCl58



I never said YOU were an aplogist, I just said most people on this board probably are. And you can take that to the bank. I got shit on a few years or so ago around here for crapping on the Shield....

Also.... If MA people hated smith they sure didnt seem to have a problem buying metric tons of them. Until Sig showed up they were probably #1 striker fired gun in MA at boring-level retail.

I don’t think the Shield is as bad as you say, but I’m not taking my money out for one! I do know that the shops I know personally sell 5 to 1 Shield vs P365. Not sure on the SA, mostly because I have owned two SA and both had more issues than all the other guns I have ever own times 3, so screw SA they can rot in hell (my own irrational opinion based on limited sample set)

 

[OnTheRoad]

Suppose there's nothing wrong with S&W as long as you don't set your expectations too high. There are other manufacturers out there for that.
"They'rrrrrre guns!"