Smokeless Load for 45/70 Sharps (modern)

[Broc]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps that I swore I would never load with smokeless ... but ... I want to check it out.

I was thinking trailboss. I'm open to recommendations.

But I'm not sure how much I should load. Right now I use 62.2 grains of FFG and compress it. I know that compressing it is a big NO NO with smokeless.

The bullet is 530 grains, cast from 20:1.

The only data I can find online is for bullets weighting under 500 grains.

Some people say to fill the case until the powder touches the bottom of the bullet and that is the max load for trailboss. Then take 70% of that, and that becomes the min load. But I'm afraid this might be too much, I like my hands and dont need them to blow up.

1. Does anyone have any reliable data for smokeless powder in a 45/70 (even if it is for a Trapdoor) with a 500+ grain bullet?

Sorry if this has been asked before, post the link and I will go read that thread.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Pedersoli states that their rifles should not exceed 29000 CUP loads.
There are a ton of loads in the Lyman manuals both old and new with all kinds of powders
I like 12 grains of Unique myself. Though it may not be fast enough to stabilize the bullet depending on the design. Yo might hear them wizzing down range.

 

[gerrycaruso]

The Lyman 50th lists 23 to 28 grains of 5744 with a 535 grain cast as being safe in a trapdoor. The 23 grain load produces about 1100 fps and is listed as the accuracy load. I use 5744 in most of my cast bullet rifle loads.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

The Lyman 50th lists 23 to 28 grains of 5744 with a 535 grain cast as being safe in a trapdoor. The 23 grain load produces about 1100 fps and is listed as the accuracy load. I use 5744 in most of my cast bullet rifle loads.

Do you ever have tumbling/lack of stability at that low speed with that long bullet?
I’ve had a few loaded to around that speed that go whizzing down range and hit 3’ off at 200 yards.

The consensus is instability at the lower speeds. I’m guessing the light charge of Unique could be position sensitive and giving me shot to shot variance resulting in a slower speed that throws it all off. The rest of them hit the steel no problem.

 

[Mountain]

Just a quick note that there are some loads (NOT for 45-70, lol) for smokeless that require slight compression, if you can call crunching a few sticks of powder compression. In all cases, those will be loads you work up to and as a general rule of thumb something most folks should avoid.

Always wanted something in a 45-70. Watching this thread...








47

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Just a quick note that there are some loads (NOT for 45-70, lol) for smokeless that require slight compression, if you can call crunching a few sticks of powder compression. In all cases, those will be loads you work up to and as a general rule of thumb something most folks should avoid.

Always wanted something in a 45-70. Watching this thread...








47

I was just talking about this exact thing this morning. A buddy has some load data for his 300 Win Mag that has serious compression. Book loads, proper brass and bullet to boot. He's scared to shoot them hahaha

 

[Mountain]

I was just talking about this exact thing this morning. A buddy has some load data for his 300 Win Mag that has serious compression. Book loads, proper brass and bullet to boot. He's scared to shoot them hahaha

Yeah, in some cases compression might be normal but... No room for error. Funny you mention 300 WM- I think it's my 7mm Rem Mag that can take 'compressed' loads. Anyway, I seriously doubt theres ever a need to go there with the 45-70.

 

[mac1911]

I have a Pedersoli Sharps that I swore I would never load with smokeless ... but ... I want to check it out.

I was thinking trailboss. I'm open to recommendations.

But I'm not sure how much I should load. Right now I use 62.2 grains of FFG and compress it. I know that compressing it is a big NO NO with smokeless.

The bullet is 530 grains, cast from 20:1.

The only data I can find online is for bullets weighting under 500 grains.

Some people say to fill the case until the powder touches the bottom of the bullet and that is the max load for trailboss. Then take 70% of that, and that becomes the min load. But I'm afraid this might be too much, I like my hands and dont need them to blow up.

1. Does anyone have any reliable data for smokeless powder in a 45/70 (even if it is for a Trapdoor) with a 500+ grain bullet?

Sorry if this has been asked before, post the link and I will go read that thread.

hodgdon on line load data for 45/70

FWIW I help a friends dad cast his 500 grain lee bullets for his 45/70 trap door he uses Trailboss for plinking loads. IIRC its right around 10 grains following the Trailboss Directions. I think he gets right around 800fps.?
he shoots silhouette out to 1000 yards at some buffalo out west some where.< he has special bullets and only uses black powder in those events?

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Yeah, in some cases compression might be normal but... No room for error. Funny you mention 300 WM- I think it's my 7mm Rem Mag that can take 'compressed' loads. Anyway, I seriously doubt theres ever a need to go there with the 45-70.

I think max loads of Varget are compressed in 45/70. Levergun loads and Ruger#1
Not fun.

 

[Broc]

hodgdon on line load data for 45/70

FWIW I help a friends dad cast his 500 grain lee bullets for his 45/70 trap door he uses Trailboss for plinking loads. IIRC its right around 10 grains following the Trailboss Directions. I think he gets right around 800fps.?
he shoots silhouette out to 1000 yards at some buffalo out west some where.< he has special bullets and only uses black powder in those events?

At those events and those distances, you shoot BP. That's what I load mine with and BP will always be the best to use in Trapdoors and Sharps. I have loaded those cases with so much BP that I had to hold the bullet while putting it in the chamber so it wouldnt fall out. Lol. I settled for 62.2 grains of FF. My 45/70 hates anything near or above 70 grains of BP, go figure.

But during winter, the cold kinda s*cks. After every shot I have to run a patch down the barrel, and I usually cant do that with gloves which means my hands get painfully cold.

I figured I can still have fun during winter with smokeless.

I dont like to half a** anything, so if I go smokeless, I want it to be accurate.

 

[Broc]

Michael sent me a few pics and I bough the Lyman reloading book. I will be taking a look at those for loads.

I was getting primers at Cabelas and I started talking with the guy that teaches hand loading there. He said the same thing I read; If I decide to use Trailboss, I have to mark how deep my bullet will sit in the casing, fill it up to that mark with Trailboss, empty it and weight it. Use between 70-90% of that as my load.

 

[Knob Creek]

With a 405 Gr. Lead bullet I use 10 Gr of Unique for a relatively soft shooting load. When I want to reach out further 200 to 300 yards I use 25 Gr of 5744 with the same bullet. This is in my C Sharps rifle and my Marlin and Rossi lever guns.

MD Smith has some data for 500 Gr. Bullets:

http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

500 RN on the left 535 Lyman Postell on the right.

 

[Broc]

View attachment 307658

500 RN on the left 535 Lyman Postell on the right.

Are you shooting those PP with BP or smokeless?

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Are you shooting those PP with BP or smokeless?

Smokeless.

I have noting to base my accuracy results on and I mostly just shoot at steel at 200 and 300 so I don't know how good of a job I'm doing.
I should send some your way and you can shoot them vs your grease groove bullets to see if they do any better or not.
What size bullets do you shoot in your rifle with black powder?

 

[gerrycaruso]

I' ve never had a problem with stability. The heaviest bullet I use is the Lyman 457125 which is 520 grains in the alloy I'm using. It's only by coincidence that I use Lyman's accuracy load. I've never gone above 23 grains of 5744 because I'm a sissy and don't like recoil.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

I' ve never had a problem with stability. The heaviest bullet I use is the Lyman 457125 which is 520 grains in the alloy I'm using. It's only by coincidence that I use Lyman's accuracy load. I've never gone above 23 grains of 5744 because I'm a sissy and don't like recoil.

I enjoy a little recoil for a few shots. I prefer middle of the range loads though. I like to shoot 100 rounds or more. I would hate to give up after 3 rounds of heavy hitting ammo.

 

[meh]

The Lyman 50th lists 23 to 28 grains of 5744 with a 535 grain cast as being safe in a trapdoor. The 23 grain load produces about 1100 fps and is listed as the accuracy load. I use 5744 in most of my cast bullet rifle loads.

I got the impression when researching 5744 (Lovex D060) that this application is what the powder was originally meant for, i.e. smokeless loads that run at BP intensity...or less, since it can be downloaded.

 

[NavelOfficer]

Many centerfire smokeless powder loads are compressed, but Trail Boss is not one of the powders used for compressed loads; none that I've ever seen, at least.
There is no direct warning about compressing Trail Boss, but I don't find any load data showing compressed loads with TB. The data uses a charge to the base of a seated bullet as maximum, so I'd use that as your guideline.
As noted in the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets in pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun! Where data is already shown for specific cartridges, never exceed listed maximums. Many original black powder pistol cartridges have capacities where a full case to the base of the intended bullet, creates charges that exceed maximum pressures allowed by SAAMI. In all these cartridges, we show data that stays within the SAAMI maximum pressure guidelines. Listed below we show a few examples of rifle loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used in both rifle and pistol applications: 1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use! 2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1 by .7), and that is your starting load. 3) Start with this beginning load and work up to your maximum charge, all the while searching for the most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

 

[gerrycaruso]

When I called Hodgdon and asked about Trail Boss in a couple of old black powder calibers, I was told to forget about their formula and use 50% as my start load and 75% as my max. load.

 

[Broc]

Smokeless.

I have noting to base my accuracy results on and I mostly just shoot at steel at 200 and 300 so I don't know how good of a job I'm doing.
I should send some your way and you can shoot them vs your grease groove bullets to see if they do any better or not.
What size bullets do you shoot in your rifle with black powder?

This is the one I shoot:

.459" 530 Grain "Money" Mini-Grease Groove 1-Cavity Cast Bullet Mould First Two Bands Reduced

1.450" long.
.459 diameter.

I push those bullets as far down the barrel as I can.

 

[DW357]

When I called Hodgdon and asked about Trail Boss in a couple of old black powder calibers, I was told to forget about their formula and use 50% as my start load and 75% as my max. load.

Interesting. And good to know if I ever get a BP rifle down the road.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

This is the one I shoot:

.459" 530 Grain "Money" Mini-Grease Groove 1-Cavity Cast Bullet Mould First Two Bands Reduced

1.450" long.
.459 diameter.

I push those bullets as far down the barrel as I can.

Nice! My 535 grain has full diameter bands so it won’t seat out as far as yours can. I’ll send you a few different ones to try out if you want. I’m interested to see how they shoot.
Each one meticulously ladle poured and wrapped as close to perfect as I can muster.

 

[Broc]

Nice! My 535 grain has full diameter bands so it won’t seat out as far as yours can. I’ll send you a few different ones to try out if you want. I’m interested to see how they shoot.
Each one meticulously ladle poured and wrapped as close to perfect as I can muster.

Nice man. Bring some to the casting seminar.

I need to cast a more rounds, then I can test those vs BP.

 

[38ExtraSpecial]

Nice man. Bring some to the casting seminar.

I need to cast a more rounds, then I can test those vs BP.

Will do.

 

[mac1911]

Michael sent me a few pics and I bough the Lyman reloading book. I will be taking a look at those for loads.

I was getting primers at Cabelas and I started talking with the guy that teaches hand loading there. He said the same thing I read; If I decide to use Trailboss, I have to mark how deep my bullet will sit in the casing, fill it up to that mark with Trailboss, empty it and weight it. Use between 70-90% of that as my load.

I dont see the heavy bullets listed for Hodgdon H4895. They cap out at 400 grains in my book.
If your just looking for accuracy you could go with lighter bullets and H4895 which also can be reduced per hodgdons Directions. With the H4895 reduced method you would be down in the 1000fps range I would think

45/70 trap door data
Hodgdon 400 grain cast.
H4895
.458"
2.540"
40.0
1,424
14,900 CUP
48.0
1,645
18,900 CUP

theres just a lot to do with this cartridge....I may have to poke around for a 45/70 lever action...

 

[gerrycaruso]

The Lyman 50th might have what you want. I see 7 powders listed for loads that would be safe in a Sharps. There are loads for 500 and 535 grain bullets. One of the powders listed is IMR 4895. I don't know if it's the same as H4895.

 

[gemihur]

My experience with Trail Boss and the 45-70 loads were unspectacular to say the least.
I used 13 gr. of powder to push a 350 gr. bullet. Accuracy and consistency were not memorable.
The outside walls of the brass showed considerable blackening by blow-by gases as the mouth of the case did not obturate to seal the chamber.
I probably could have used 14 gr. without compression of powder but I'm a cautious kinda guy.
I do load other cartridges with Trail Boss for plinking loads. A 30 Herrett load using a 125 gr. spitzer and 7.5 gr. powder. These shoot fine.
My only conclusion might be that a heavier projectile in a straightwall case requires enough pressure to seal the mouth of the brass from blow-by gases where a bottleneck doesn't.

 

[DW357]

My experience with Trail Boss and the 45-70 loads were unspectacular to say the least.
I used 13 gr. of powder to push a 350 gr. bullet. Accuracy and consistency were not memorable.
The outside walls of the brass showed considerable blackening by blow-by gases as the mouth of the case did not obturate to seal the chamber.
I probably could have used 14 gr. without compression of powder but I'm a cautious kinda guy.
I do load other cartridges with Trail Boss for plinking loads. A 30 Herrett load using a 125 gr. spitzer and 7.5 gr. powder. These shoot fine.
My only conclusion might be that a heavier projectile in a straightwall case requires enough pressure to seal the mouth of the brass from blow-by gases where a bottleneck doesn't.
View attachment 312325

Nice gun!

 

[jpm]

Unique is what you want. It works with everything. 12gr give or take 2 gr works with lead bullets in 45-70. I load for my trapdoors 300gr & 350gr bullets with 11-12gr unique and they are nice soft but accurate loads.