What???Aren't you paying attention?!!! Read it again, from the beginning and watch the videos.
Clearly it's the perfect CCW, as long as you don't have to shoot anyone.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
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SR 22 for CCW
- Thread starter snubking
- Start date
Clearly it's the perfect CCW, as long as you don't have to shoot anyone.
Most dynamic critical incidents occur at 2 arms length.
"stopping power" means nothing. Medical science and empirical evidence show that no matter how large the round is, the majority of the time, you will need multiple shots to end an attack.
.40 does NOT have more "stopping power" than 9mm...and neither does .45. I've seen a man who had a .45 straight through his heart...he continued his attack...and 6 staples later is still alive.
.22 is considered a poor choice for self defense not because of the size of the round. if you can hit your adversary 10 times with a .22 then thats better than 1 close call with a .45, because, contrary to popular belief, internet rumors, and gun shop lore, a .45 will NOT knock you down.
Snubkind, if that's all you can carry then so be it. Just realize the inadequacies of the AMMO, not the round itself. .22 is an inherently unreliable round because most guns are ammo sensitive, and due to the rimfire vs centerfire primer, it is not as consistent. TRAIN with your gun, know how to diagnose and correct a malfunction. Recognize the difference between slide lock and a malfunction and how to deal with both.
The gun on your hip is better than the one left at home, just become proficient with it. I personally would not choose a .22 for self defense, that is a choice i have made. I also would not choose a .40 either, don't let the keyboard commandos dictate what you do or dont carry
"stopping power" means nothing. Medical science and empirical evidence show that no matter how large the round is, the majority of the time, you will need multiple shots to end an attack.
.40 does NOT have more "stopping power" than 9mm...and neither does .45. I've seen a man who had a .45 straight through his heart...he continued his attack...and 6 staples later is still alive.
.22 is considered a poor choice for self defense not because of the size of the round. if you can hit your adversary 10 times with a .22 then thats better than 1 close call with a .45, because, contrary to popular belief, internet rumors, and gun shop lore, a .45 will NOT knock you down.
Snubkind, if that's all you can carry then so be it. Just realize the inadequacies of the AMMO, not the round itself. .22 is an inherently unreliable round because most guns are ammo sensitive, and due to the rimfire vs centerfire primer, it is not as consistent. TRAIN with your gun, know how to diagnose and correct a malfunction. Recognize the difference between slide lock and a malfunction and how to deal with both.
The gun on your hip is better than the one left at home, just become proficient with it. I personally would not choose a .22 for self defense, that is a choice i have made. I also would not choose a .40 either, don't let the keyboard commandos dictate what you do or dont carry
Bob, **DRB**,
So a .22 just seems like it can be fired accuratly faster? Because of lack of muzzle flash and noise.
So less muzzle rise does not mean faster follow up shots? I dont know anybody that would disagree that a 22 could be fired faster with greater accuracy than any centerfire round.
I guess iv heard it all now.
So a .22 just seems like it can be fired accuratly faster? Because of lack of muzzle flash and noise.
So less muzzle rise does not mean faster follow up shots? I dont know anybody that would disagree that a 22 could be fired faster with greater accuracy than any centerfire round.
I guess iv heard it all now.
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1. As DRB already stated, most guns will cycle as fast as you can pull the trigger, regardless of caliber.
2. As DRDTraining already stated, most dynamic critical incidents occur at 2 arms length, so how much accuracy on followup shots does one really need? A CCW does not need to be driving nails at 100 yards, just as long as it gets the job done when you need it.
3. As many people have already stated, you need to practice with your gun in order to shoot well with it. I have seen shooters perform better with their 9/40/45 than most will ever be with even a 22. Not to mention the gun itself plays a huge factor, especially when things like "trigger jobs" come into the equation.
4. My personal experience, I can say that my 22 pistols have jammed more than any others guns I have owned. Risk my life on that?
But to each their own. If you chose to use a .22 for CCW, then god bless you. But as you can see, you will find many people will not share your view on it. And this thread has given many expamples of why not. Other than "speed" and "accuracy", which are both not inherent of the caliber, but rather the shooters ability with said gun, you have not supplied any facts to back your claim. Again, personal choice is fine, just don't expect to convince many.
Just to make myself clear, I was not condemning the use of a .22...if thats what you are comfortable with, have trained with, and become proficient with, then by all means use it.
As far as the balance of speed and precision goes, all shooting is a BoSP. There are a few things that will dictate that, your confidence in your ability, your target, your distance to your target, and perceived penalty for a miss. The biggest thing that will help end a DCI as quick and efficient as possible are your shots on target. You may not even need to hit your intended target to stop them, we call that combat effectiveness. However, if you are involved in a DCI, it will be VERY hard for you to shoot that gun as if you were bullseye shooting at the range. It will behoove you to NOT target shoot. You want to score combat accurate hits on the threat, as many as possible, as fast as possible. You are not seeking a to punch one ragged hole, but instead achieve a grouping, preferably fist sized on that target. That will have the desired outcome you are looking for.
Too bad no handgun round in creation was ever designed to "knock a man down"...
If its going to be arms length away , And im only going to get 1 shot off.i better buy the cobra derringer in 410 shot shell and have a Gunsmith customize the gun so both barrels go off at the same time, it would be like shooting 8 times
that might be the closest knock down power your going to find lol
that might be the closest knock down power your going to find lol
chinalfr
NES Member
If its going to be arms length away , And im only going to get 1 shot off.i better buy the cobra derringer in 410 shot shell and have a Gunsmith customize the gun so both barrels go off at the same time, it would be like shooting 8 times
That's a job for S&W Governor or Taurus Judge. S&W = 6 shot 410, Taurus = 7 shots 410. Match up with 45LC or 45acp, it will knock down all kind snakes surrounding you.
ChevyGuy91
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Thanks for posting the link to that article. I had read it before and found it to be informative, logical and very well presented. Mostly I liked it because it agrees completely with my own well considered and insightful thoughts on the matter.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
Ya, I pretty much glaze over and go numb when I read those names. It get's better. Skip down a bit. It's got nifty charts and multi-color graphs and not a single goat anywhere.It had the words Marshall and Sanow in the first 3 paragraphs. Whats next, Strasbourg goat tests???![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Yes, but most of that data is all based on junk science. The problem with tracking ballistic effectiveness of handgun cartridges in humans, is that in order to do it in a way that was remotely statistically meaningful, you'd have to track a LOT more variables in the mix, and some of those variables are tough to track, hell, some of them are impossible. (For example, does any PD track the shot window between when they started to shoot at a bad guy and when he stopped his attack? )
The worst thing that most "stop statistics" don't track is complete failures and they never weigh the failures into the mix at all. A lot of bad guys get shot and they don't get taken down by the bullets, or some extraneous factor unrelated to them being shot takes them out of the fight.
Then you have the issue of defining what a stop is- at a strict definition, it would be a CNS or Brain hit or some other critical hit that IMMEDIATELY causes the BG to cease their actions through physical damage. Part of the problem with this is there are a lot of "stops" which are psychological in nature (eg, BG says "OMG I just got shot oh noes" and then falls on the ground because he thinks he's supposed to do that, or he goes into shock) and you can't necessarily count those as being effective for ballistic purposes.
Then there is also the issue of straight up pain. Similar hits may cause different levels of pain on different people depending on individual tolerance, the level of adrenaline and such in their system, etc.
-Mike
You're taking the wrong approach to this. I understand your use of thoughtful logical reasoning and desire for meaningful discourse. However, this is the 21st century. In the here and now, no science is junk science when it validates my feelings.
That being said, in a self defense situation I am totally A-freakin'-OKAY with a psychological stop. Heck, if the attacker wants to keel over and curl up in the fetal position at the sight of my polished nickel bobcat, I will merrily fly the mission accomplished banner and call it done.
You are right about the "stop stats". You have to worry about the complete failure to stop. I guess we roll the dice and hope the odds are in our favor. I don't think you can bank on stacking the deck with a big gun. Remember, there were people that walked away from the Hiroshima bomb.
You're taking the wrong approach to this. I understand your use of thoughtful logical reasoning and desire for meaningful discourse. However, this is the 21st century. In the here and now, no science is junk science when it validates my feelings.
That being said, in a self defense situation I am totally A-freakin'-OKAY with a psychological stop. Heck, if the attacker wants to keel over and curl up in the fetal position at the sight of my polished nickel bobcat, I will merrily fly the mission accomplished banner and call it done.
You are right about the "stop stats". You have to worry about the complete failure to stop. I guess we roll the dice and hope the odds are in our favor. I don't think you can bank on stacking the deck with a big gun. Remember, there were people that walked away from the Hiroshima bomb.
Crappy analogy, IMHO. A handgun isn't a nuclear weapon.
If you want to look at it from a damage standpoint playing with a .22 LR for self defense is like doing a D&D damage roll with a single six sided die. While you're messing around hoping you roll a 6 I get two, maybe even three extra dice to roll simply because I refuse to carry anything smaller than a 9mm. The wound ballistics, power factor, etc, all back this up.
If mousegun calibers were "good enough" for self defense then police departments and other LE agencies everywhere would be doing things like issuing handguns chambered in .32 ACP, etc. to get extra capacity.
-Mike
Mike, I am just having fun. Thanks for the repartee. As I said earlier:
Wooooaaa, woooaa, hold up there big fella! Serious talk??? Serious? Who said anything about serious?
I do think this is a fun topic however. If you really want to start a party, login to any gun forum and post this:
"Who makes the best 22 ammo for personal defense?"
Make sure you have your asbestos helmet on
If I think I need a gun, it will be a 357 revolver.
If I know I need a gun, it will be a rifle.
If I don't think I need a gun, it will be a 22.
I do not advocate bringing a .22 to a gunfight.
Oh yeah, somebody will like my Hiroshima analogy, c'mon... nuke beats D&D anytime. Ask any 9 year old.
![[grin]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/041.gif "Grin [grin]")
The .22 is on the far right. You tell me what you'd like to carry.
#6 is my personal favorite. #7 is fun too.
Wow. LOL Mike.
I would never trust my life on a .22. It is a good enough gun for plinking and small game but it loses the little energy it has very quickly. It is better than nothing but still, go for at least a 9mm.
-Al
-Al
CZECH VZ.61 SCORPIONI can see it now, a full size .32 ACP pistol with 31 rounds in the mag.
http://www.slickguns.com/product/cz-91510-vz61-scorpion-32acp-30rdships-free-575
Description:
CZ-USA VZ61 Skorpion
CZ USA 30 + 1 Round 32 ACP w/Hardwood Grips & Blue Finish
The semi-auto version of the famous CZ VZ 61 Skorpion submachine gun is now
available from CZ-USA in .32 ACP. The version from CZ-USA is classified as
a handgun, and does not include the folding stock.
SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: 91510
Category: FIREARMS - HANDGUNS
Type
istolAction :Single
Caliber :32 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP)
Barrel Length :4.52"
Capacity :30 + 1 <---- YOU NAILED THAT ONE
Safety :Manual
Grips :Hardwood
Sights :Fixed
Weight :2.6 lbs
Finish :Blue
[video=youtube_share;UJOAAE5cuV8]http://youtu.be/UJOAAE5cuV8[/video]
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CZECH VZ.61 SCORPION
http://www.slickguns.com/product/cz-91510-vz61-scorpion-32acp-30rdships-free-575
Description:
CZ-USA VZ61 Skorpion
CZ USA 30 + 1 Round 32 ACP w/Hardwood Grips & Blue Finish
The semi-auto version of the famous CZ VZ 61 Skorpion submachine gun is now
available from CZ-USA in .32 ACP. The version from CZ-USA is classified as
a handgun, and does not include the folding stock.
SPECIFICATIONS:
Mfg Item Num: 91510
Category: FIREARMS - HANDGUNS
Type
Action :Single
Caliber :32 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP)
Barrel Length :4.52"
Capacity :30 + 1 <---- YOU NAILED THAT ONE
Safety :Manual
Grips :Hardwood
Sights :Fixed
Weight :2.6 lbs
Finish :Blue
0.0
Its so freakin cute I want one! (And yes, anything under 380 can be called "cute")
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Well one of the Ayoobisms (as Mike likes to call them) is: "Friends don't let friends carry mouseguns."...yet there are those who regularly carry some kind of .22 such as the S&W 617 or the Beretta Bobcat. A .22 wouldn't be my first choice, yet because no handgun round is 100 percent reliable, I would not discount the .22 LR. I'd take it over a .25 ACP anyday. There are cases of the .22 stopping an assailant with one shot, and cases where the assailant continued to fight after taking multiple hits with a .44 Magnum.
Having said that, a .22 would not be my first choice in a defensive round. YMMV, but I don't think that it is an optimal idea. If that is all you have, then by all means it is better than no gun. I could see something like a Beretta Bobcat as a second back-up gun (although if you have resorted to a third gun after running out of ammo on your primary weapon and primary BUG, you have probably expended your options)
Having said that, a .22 would not be my first choice in a defensive round. YMMV, but I don't think that it is an optimal idea. If that is all you have, then by all means it is better than no gun. I could see something like a Beretta Bobcat as a second back-up gun (although if you have resorted to a third gun after running out of ammo on your primary weapon and primary BUG, you have probably expended your options)
When it dies down I'm going to ask "which brand of .22 ammo is best for self-defense?" or maybe "who makes the best short barrel .22 defense ammo?"
