Stack-on Safe Electronic Lock?

[Hardwired]

What are the thoughts on Stack-On Electronic Lock? It looks convenient but not sure if its prone to failure

The 24 gun safe looks to be built well enough but the plastic pull off electronic lock looks like a weak point. It does have long skeleton like keys to get in if the electronic lock fails or is damaged. Is this a security liability?

The other safe I am looking at has a combo lock.

 

[AlwaysBeClosing]

A friend got a Sentry - one of the discontinued keypad 14-gun models. For a sub-$800 safe, it's well-built, with nice shelf arrangements and decent dimensions. It has a long key access point behind the keypad.

The price was right, but there is no way to mute the tone while using the keypad. He removed the speaker from the circuit board to make the keypad silent. I guess that is why it was discontinued!

 

[stinger35]

I'm a fan of mechanical locks. More than likely those are cheap Chinese electronics, and while the mechanical components were probably made there as well, I feel they are less prone to failure. You could probably change it out, pending cost vs. a different safe.

 

[Madisonian]

Stack-On safes not secure

I caution you strongly against Stack-On electronic lock, and their safes for that matter.

I know I may ruffle some feathers here, as after having done a lot of research into safes and locks, and even taking up the locksport hobby, I have noticed that most threads on this site about safes are ones advocating for purchase decisions folks have made, and encouraging others to do the same. For example, someone asks "how is xyz safe" and someone else replies "that's what I got, and it's great." There is very little critical or objective discussion about the security aspects, or the price-performance of the products discussed.

That said - Stack-On electronic locks with the key-lock bypass are junk. They can be defeated very quickly with improvised tools made of commonly available materials, like paper clips.

A youtube search will conform this. Start here: DETAILED ANALYZE OF STACK-ON GUN SAFES BY SECURITY LABS.wmv - YouTube

I would worry less about them failing than about teenagers easily opening them (teenagers in your own family, or who have broken-in; nearly half of all home break-ins are by neighborhood teenagers).

 

[Chet0729]

Stack-on is what you buy if you cant afford anything else. They are junk. They are the Kia of safes. Go take a good hard look at one. The quality and workmanship are horrible, crappy welds, doors don't shut tight etc. You can get a better safe for not a lot more money. Your gun safe is not something to cheap out on.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The "skeleton key" is a S&G (or S&G style) lever tumbler lock and surprisingly good considering the safe it is on. One thing Stack On does with their dial combination is ruins a perfectly good S&G lock by having the lock engage on the last number, rather than turning past the last number to engage the cam. This allows someone who has the first two numbers to try every last number without redialing the first two - effectively reducing the combination space from 2.8 numbers to 2. (I said 2.8 since the forbidden zone limits the last number in S&G locks to 0-80. If you play games with the tolerances you can get the search space down a bit further.

A youtube search will conform this. Start here: DETAILED ANALYZE OF STACK-ON GUN SAFES BY SECURITY LABS.wmv - YouTube

This shows the small Stack-Ons. The uprights with the combination lock and lever tumber bypass are considerably less junky

 

[Hardwired]

I caution you strongly against Stack-On electronic lock, and their safes for that matter.

I know I may ruffle some feathers here, as after having done a lot of research into safes and locks, and even taking up the locksport hobby, I have noticed that most threads on this site about safes are ones advocating for purchase decisions folks have made, and encouraging others to do the same. For example, someone asks "how is xyz safe" and someone else replies "that's what I got, and it's great." There is very little critical or objective discussion about the security aspects, or the price-performance of the products discussed.

That said - Stack-On electronic locks with the key-lock bypass are junk. They can be defeated very quickly with improvised tools made of commonly available materials, like paper clips.

A youtube search will conform this. Start here: DETAILED ANALYZE OF STACK-ON GUN SAFES BY SECURITY LABS.wmv - YouTube

I would worry less about them failing than about teenagers easily opening them (teenagers in your own family, or who have broken-in; nearly half of all home break-ins are by neighborhood teenagers).

Wow, those aren't "safes".
I was looking at the large safes for rifles but the electronic model has a slot where the cable comes thru for the plastic keypad. I would presume the slot would allow access to someone to attempt to use to trigger the lock. The cable is probably another item someone can use to try electronically trigger or short something. Then there are some keys as a backup measure...

Is a combination lock secure? Does it have to be an S&G?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The cable is probably another item someone can use to try electronically trigger or short something. Then there are some keys as a backup measure...

On a decent electronic lock (and I think the ones on the upright Stack-ons are decent), the cable simply delivers a "number" to the lock mechanism, with all the decision about triggering done within the lock body inside the safe.

As to key locks, backups like Medeco, Abloy, Lagard 2270, and the S&G lever tumbler are pretty good; most others are suspect.

Is a combination lock secure? Does it have to be an S&G?

S&G, LaGard (now owned by Kaba/Mas) and Kaba/Mas are the "go to" brands for high security combination locks. Ratings are Group II, IIm and I, with an optional "r". For home users, the chances of having an opponent who can manipulate even a group II are somewhat less than facing an intruder who is going to open the side or top door to your safe. Forget about "r" - the wheels wear out faster since they are synthetic, but you are immune to x-ray analysis of your lock.

 

[Gammon]

I recall an interview with a safe vendor/specialist. He said that everything breaks sooner or later and that electronic locks break sooner. He advised to stay away from electronic locks. BJs in Stoneham has a couple of safes that look pretty sturdy, but they are obviously not top of the line.

 

[Madisonian]

To back up here a minute and try to put this in perspective, yes, the original poster was referring to a larger StackOn safe, and his question seemed to be about reliability and security, two questions.

It is probably true to say all electronic locks are less reliable, more prone to failure than mechanical ones. It is also safe to say that inexpensive, offshore-produced electronic locks are generally junk.

I think Rob may have muddied the waters here a bit talking about S&G and Lagard locks, or lock characteristics, in the context of the StackOn, and adds some more general confusion. As far as I am aware, and can find, there is no StackOn lock with an S&G (Sargent and Greenleaf) lock on it. Period. Also, 'though StackOn may have a mechanical combination lock they use on safes, there is no way StackOn modified an S&G lock as Rob implies when he says "[O]ne thing Stack On does with their dial combination is ruins a perfectly good S&G lock by having the lock engage on the last number, ...." In addition, while S&G make a lever-tumbler lock for safes, they do not make a dial combination lock with a lever-tumbler bypass, at least not that I have ever heard of or can find in their current catalog; and if they did, I guess the list price would exceed the cost of this safe. (For reference the standard S&G combination lock, a 6730, lists at about $160; the 6870 key lock about the same).

A key bypass is a serious security vulnerability. Worse than that, though, is that a knowledgable crook wouldn't even bother attempting to pick the bypass lock on this safe. There is a big red combo reset button on the inside edge of the door that one can reach with an easily-made tool, like a bent piece of steel from a wiper blade, and reset the combo, set a new one, and be in in under a minute.

Now that's a serious vulnerability!

 

[Madisonian]

Follow up on Stack-On safe with electronic lock

I wanted to follow-up on this. Since my last post I have gone to Dick's and examined the safe in question, and confirmed what I asserted here based on my research. And, I'd like to make a suggestion.

The safe is the biggest one they have in the store and is priced at $899, but it does not appear on their web site. Delivery is a lot - $350.

The lock is an electronic combination lock. I tried the default combo and opened it. I opened the door and sure enough, on the inside edge of the door, about even with the bottom of the top hinge there'a a big, red combination reset button. You can twist the keypad to eh left and remove it, and look in and see the keyway for the lever tumbler bypass lock.

There are therefore three non-destructive ways to get into this safe: the combination, the key, and the reset switch. These are a logical "OR," of course, meaning any one way gets you in.

I must say that the design thinking of this lock. A well-executed electronic lock with a lever-tumbler bypass is actually an excellent approach, considering that electronic locks will fail, and it will require drilling the safe to get in, which these days is $300 to $500 to open and restore. What is unknown is how well designed and manufactured this one is. It is manufacturing imperfections that give rise to vulnerabilities. Unless it is horribly poorly designed no one is going to pick their way into this safe. Not that on many Stack-On safes, the bypass lock is trivially easy to pick. So, unknown.

Please don't say you haven't changed the default combo! Anyone familiar with these will know what it is.

The reset switch is a huge vulnerability. Sure, it requires knowledge of these, but a curious teenager, or someone in your household who can search the web can get it. There's an audit trail, so to speak, since it requires them changing the combo, so you'll know, and you won't be able to get in (unless you use the same trick).

I would recommend to anyone with this safe or one like it to remove, disable, or relocate the reset switch! If you need to change the combo you can remove the inside of the safe door and use an alligator-clip test lead to reset it; or if you relocate it to an obscure, unreachable location, just press it.

 

[blinky]

Someone in the comments made a valid point:
"If my kid can #1, find my safe, then I have done something wrong. If my kid can #2, physically reach said safe once he's found it, then I have done something wrong. If my kid can #3, take the time you guys took to open that PDS-500 without me knowing, then again I have done something wrong. Gun safety lies between the ears, everything outside of that is extra precaution"

If you're worried about people breaking into your house I can almost guarantee they aren't sticking around to play with a piece of brass to get into your safe. Seeing a metal box with a keypad on it is enough to dissuade them from trying to get at it. Someone also said it's obvious it's so easy for the people in the video because they knew the exact model before hand and was able to study it. They're also a professional. If a teenager walks into a strangers house I doubt they know the model off the top of their head and if they have time to sit there and search the internet then you're screwed anyways.

My point being. Buy what you can afford and if you get the chance to invest several thousand dollars into a high end safe then do it.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I have not examined the interior of the large Stack On safe, however, I assumed it used an S&G lock since it has an S&G dial (or a dang good clone of one). That assumption may very well have been inaccurate. My description of how the third number may be enumerated with one dialing of the first two numbers is accurate (I tried it on a display unit in a shop).

At to bypass locks - they are not always the same lock. Sometimes, safes use two lock mechanisms, one dial, one mechanical. But, it may very well be a cheap substitute for an S&G lever tumbler lock at the Stack On price point.

 

[Madisonian]

I have not examined the interior of the large Stack On safe, however, I assumed it used an S&G lock since it has an S&G dial (or a dang good clone of one). That assumption may very well have been inaccurate. My description of how the third number may be enumerated with one dialing of the first two numbers is accurate (I tried it on a display unit in a shop).

At to bypass locks - they are not always the same lock. Sometimes, safes use two lock mechanisms, one dial, one mechanical. But, it may very well be a cheap substitute for an S&G lever tumbler lock at the Stack On price point.

Yes, the electronic lock is not an S&G lock, nor is the dial combination lock they use.

The bypass lock, in order to work, would have to be arranged as a logical "OR," else, it wouldn't be a bypass. One of my safes has a key lock in addition to the dial combination lock, but it's not a bypass, it's a "day lock," intended for quick access during the day, as for retail applications.

The Stack-On bypass appears to be integral to the electronic lock mechanism, and while I didn't take it apart in the store, by what I could see I guess the lever tumbler lock withdraws the same bolt that the electronic mechanism does.

 

[Sputa Arms]

As a professional safe technician.. MY EARS HURT..

CARRY ON!

 

[Madisonian]

Someone in the comments made a valid point:
"If my kid can #1, find my safe, then I have done something wrong. If my kid can #2, physically reach said safe once he's found it, then I have done something wrong. If my kid can #3, take the time you guys took to open that PDS-500 without me knowing, then again I have done something wrong. Gun safety lies between the ears, everything outside of that is extra precaution"

If you're worried about people breaking into your house I can almost guarantee they aren't sticking around to play with a piece of brass to get into your safe. Seeing a metal box with a keypad on it is enough to dissuade them from trying to get at it. Someone also said it's obvious it's so easy for the people in the video because they knew the exact model before hand and was able to study it. They're also a professional. If a teenager walks into a strangers house I doubt they know the model off the top of their head and if they have time to sit there and search the internet then you're screwed anyways.

My point being. Buy what you can afford and if you get the chance to invest several thousand dollars into a high end safe then do it.

I think the risk here is access by curious teenagers who live in your house, and their friends, whom they may have told. I agree that the likelihood that the random burglar breaking into your house knows something about your safe is low. If he broke in surmised you were away for a while, he might come back armed with information about the safe, but again, unlikely.

The bigger risk with chain-store safes like Stack-On and burglars with some time to work is that they don't resist body attacks very well, and a circular saw with a metal cutting blade will open them up pretty quickly, albeit noisily.

As far as someone "sticking around to play with a piece of brass," you are making the point that a good safe is not necessary, that the appearance of security is sufficient; I'm not going to argue as to whether a good safe is a good idea, I think it is, and there are tons of instances of cheap safes being defeated during break-ins. What I'm saying it that this isn't about whether you need a good safe, ti's about whether the Stack-On is a good safe.

 

[Madisonian]

see next post

 

[Madisonian]

As a professional safe technician.. MY EARS HURT..

CARRY ON!

I must say, though, that this is a snarky comment. It doesn't add to the discussion at all, and seems intended only to disparage those who have been attempting to make a contribution. "I'm an expert, and you guys are stupid" kind of thing. I'd be happy to learn what you have to say on this topic, be corrected or straightened out if I have something wrong.

 

[blinky]

I think the risk here is access by curious teenagers who live in your house, and their friends, whom they may have told. I agree that the likelihood that the random burglar breaking into your house knows something about your safe is low. If he broke in surmised you were away for a while, he might come back armed with information about the safe, but again, unlikely.

The bigger risk with chain-store safes like Stack-On and burglars with some time to work is that they don't resist body attacks very well, and a circular saw with a metal cutting blade will open them up pretty quickly, albeit noisily.

As far as someone "sticking around to play with a piece of brass," you are making the point that a good safe is not necessary, that the appearance of security is sufficient; I'm not going to argue as to whether a good safe is a good idea, I think it is, and there are tons of instances of cheap safes being defeated during break-ins. What I'm saying it that this isn't about whether you need a good safe, ti's about whether the Stack-On is a good safe.

To the point of the curious teenager...if you have a gun in a safe and you have a teenager in your house that isn't aware of proper gun safety and respect that's on you. If they are willing to break into a safe in their own home to "play" with your gun, then something is seriously wrong.
Also on the stack on safes the key hole is hidden so again they would need some familiarity with the model.

I'm not saying stack on is a great safe, but for the money it's pretty good. I paid less than 70 dollars for mine personally and have had it for several years with zero problems.

I also don't have the worry of people in my home trying to get into my safe and the safe it self is not in plain view.

I'm not saying they are amazing but the premise of the video that was posted is biased. I heard them mention "Our safes" So the point of it is obvious.

 

[Sputa Arms]

Not meant to be snarky at all..

3 steps

Look into a safe in your price range.. that has the bells and wistles you can AFFORD
Set your preferance to mechanical or digital lock.
Bolt down safe, so no one can leave the premises with it..

If you are worried about digital locks failing buy a mechanical.. if you want quick access buy a digital.. if you are worried about anything else.
Install 4 concrete walls an ad a vault door.

You get what you pay for .

 

[Madisonian]

To the point of the curious teenager...if you have a gun in a safe and you have a teenager in your house that isn't aware of proper gun safety and respect that's on you. If they are willing to break into a safe in their own home to "play" with your gun, then something is seriously wrong.

What if the kid is mentally ill?

But that's also beside the point. The discussion was about whether it's a good safe not whether one needs a good safe. In a perfect world no safe would be necessary at all.

 

[blinky]

What if the kid is mentally ill?

But that's also beside the point. The discussion was about whether it's a good safe not whether one needs a good safe. In a perfect world no safe would be necessary at all.

If a mentally ill child is able to get into a locked safe then not exactly that ill are they?

any safe of that nature is going to be able to be "cracked" It's just the amount of effort and needed to get into it.

Is a stack on a "good safe" Yes. Are they great safes. No. For their price range they do the job.
comparing stack on to the high ends is like asking if honda is a good car comparing it to a corvette.

 

[Madisonian]

If a mentally ill child is able to get into a locked safe then not exactly that ill are they?

You're kidding, right? How about Adam Lanza, James Holmes, Dillon Klebold, Eric Harris, et.al. Just because someone is mentally ill does not mean they are stupid or totally incompetent. Many suicidal people are highly intelligent: Hunter Thompson, Ernest Hemingway, just to name a couple of famous ones. Also, you may have a recalcitrant teen at home - but, oh, no, according to you that's "on you" - and what is one to do - get rid of their guns altogether? Too bad not everyone can be the perfect parent of perfect kids.

A good safe is - good. A safe that has a ridiculously easy to exploit vulnerability offers only a false sense of security. By the way, I offered a suggestion whereby you can improve that safe dramatically, which is to remove or relocate the reset button.

 

[Maxspeed]

What about the 24 gun Stack On Elite Series Fire Resistant Safe - Black
E24MBESDS. I an get this free with my hotel points. Is this any good? Thinking 2nd floor.

View attachment 125923

 

[Kisspik002]

What are the thoughts on Stack-On Electronic Lock? It looks convenient but not sure if its prone to failure

The 24 gun safe looks to be built well enough but the plastic pull off electronic lock looks like a weak point. It does have long skeleton like keys to get in if the electronic lock fails or is damaged. Is this a security liability?

The other safe I am looking at has a combo lock.

i have this exact safe and the electronic lock has been nothing but reliable. Never have had any issues with the lock. Still have the original 9v battery I put in when I bought it almost two years ago

 

[Maxspeed]

How do you thing a bedroom 2nd floor would hold up to the weight?

 

[mikelawtown]

4 years ans no issues, and same battery

 

[Maxspeed]

Thanks guys. I am just a little hesitant about 440ish pounds in a small concentrated area on my 2nd floor room.

 

[Kisspik002]

My safe is on my hardwood floor and I put padding under it so not to damage the floor. Second floors I would assume are just as strong as first floors. Seeing there is a basement below them. Put some good padding down and I don't think you will have any issues. Best of luck

 

[Maxspeed]

Awesome, thanks. The room is carpetted, think I will ned something more?