• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Superior to Clock

Rating - 0%
0   1   0
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
79
Likes
76
Gonna get flamed I'm sure but who cares..

Not gonna lie or disclaim or beat around the bush, the all out best gun going IMO is the Remington 1858, whether by Pietta or Uberti, though I admit a preference for the second. Why? They've always been that little bit smoother in operation IMO. Both lock up like bank vaults, I mean ZERO wiggle of the cylinder when at full cock. And these guns are the ONLY blued revolvers that I've ever owned personally, which NEVER leave a turn ring if the simple rule of taking the two seconds time it takes to align an inserted cylinder and draw to full cock and lower, is followed.

May not be a big deal to some, but that turn ring really disgusts me to look at, gives an appearance of misused and abused. Maybe I'm alone on that one but it is nonetheless true. That's why I never consider blued revolvers outside of the Italian clones, except for the 1500.00 Colt's I'll never afford. With double-actions I do understand that it's sort of inevitable that it happens, but I don't feel that should be the case given the design capabilities of the major manufacturers, who these days are making a TON of money. The single actions by Ruger just cannot be bought in blued to my eyes. They leave rings. Also I do not like this thing that manufacturers like to call "bluing" these days, the major problem being that none of these guns get the right amount of polishing that they need before bluing, and that they did get back in the day. Bluing SHOULD be glossy. The upside to a blued gun over a stainless one is that you could still see your own reflection just like the stainless, while not show a glare from far off. Aka the fact that the metal has been blued IS your glare reducer, and it seems today's bluing uses "glare reduction" as a reason for giving sporting arms military-like finishes. Pure yuck.

Stainless also leaves turn rings in all of these newer guns, but it can at least be polished and touched up. Stainless' selling point is, of course, it's added corrosion resistance. But the main caveat in my opinion, at least in revolvers, is that it can be brought to looking new in appearance, which includes removing that nasty turn ring. That said, with the Italian clones of either stainless or carbon material, those turn rings are just plain and simply a non issue in a mechanically correct revolver which is being used by an informed operator. The bluing is superb and old school, and rivaling the old Smith's in the case of the Uberti's. Polishing before the bluing is applied, is in fact in itself a much better rust deterrent than is offered in any of these modern "matte" bluings", which, if we're honest, really need to be lightly smeared in grease to prevent rust while being put up. And being honest again, I would ask this.. Would any of you want to pay as much for a revolver with an obvious turn line, as you would for one without one? Given identical guns, which were used identically, with the same amount of rounds through them, and built on the same day, and with both being well cared for equally. Which would you pick for the same price? That's my point, and that turn ring leaves an impression of wear and tear which should not exist on a gun which has been competently cared for and with no EXCESSIVE wear and tear on it other than that ugly scratch.

Man I'm on a rant.. And I'm not a fan of "antiqued" finishes, They should be called "neglected" finishes, as it's been my experience that the more a gun is used and handled, as it is passed down from one generation to another, the more the bluing/nickel becomes POLISHED off in certain areas, and the more the grip stocks are used, an increasing yellowing of the finish as well as an uneven increase in the polishing, becomes apparent over the wood. That is antiqued to me, it's not supposed to look like it was used as a hammer and then left to pit in the weather on the grass for a year, to then be given a quick sanding and a cheap lacquer job on the stocks - that to me, goes with the "neglected" finish.

Back to the 1858. We are talking about the fastest reload possible in a revolver, sans a Jerry Miculek talent using personalized hardware. No revolver reloads as quickly as an 1858 with extra cylinders in practiced hands. None, whether double or single action. With the Remington you simply drop out the old, roll in the new, set pin, snap lever, cock and fire. Accuracy is far and away superior to any modern design autoloader. The 15 shots will do him no good as those light guns with squirt gun triggers, are bouncing all over the place in rapid fire as your own eye easily acquires that long sight plane and your finger touches off that 3 pound trigger which has no creep and a crisp break. The 1858 is the ONLY single action revolver which can be realistically utilized as a combat handgun, as in being used in a protracted engagement and not merely for the purpose of possible personal defense. The Remington is the ONLY percussion gun for which a conversion cylinder even makes sense to me, to hell with turning screws on Rugers or pulling barrels on Colts. I like the Colts as they are, for cap and ball.

Speaking on ballistics, a .44/.45 black powder, when loaded properly in CnB mode, or utilizing .45 Colt, is bested only by the hotter .357 magnum and .45 super loads. .45 ACP, even in +P, is not the equal of the old Remington in terms of power. The cowboy load crap is just that,- crap. In the real world these guns shoot untold amounts of standard pressure .45 Colt of all incarnations, and yes, I do mean modern jacketed bullets as well. The Remington is at least as strong as a SAA, and while SLIGHTLY inferior to the Ruger old army in strength, neither is a Blackhawk, and neither will handle hot .45 Colt - forget that.

These guns are ridiculously high quality. A manufacturer who is going to provide you with a product which has a superior finish without tooling marks, and markets their own cartridge versions of the same guns, is not about to screw you with lousy materials for a base. American gunmakers need to learn a few things from the Italians about how to provide quality products to the consumer.

I recommend the 8" variation, as size matters more in black powder mode. And forget black powder, use 777 or trailboss.

I have spoken.
 
Rating - 0%
0   1   0
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
79
Likes
76
Why not both? I don't like Glock. I don't like plastic guns. They are garbage, sell yours if you have one. That or go buy a plastic sword.
 

Picton

NES Member
Rating - 100%
28   0   0
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
14,721
Likes
17,519
Location
MA
The good people at Uberti are probably scratching their heads since Friday, looking at their usage data and wondering why the hell so many people from New England are googling the 1858 all of a sudden.

I don't like Glock either. But I'm not about to CCW a Remington 1858 just because you say so.
 
Last edited:
Rating - 0%
0   1   0
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
79
Likes
76
The 1858 will serve in TWO major wars. And will be the friend of liberty alongside the 1911. A distinction to be made by posterity.
 

Mountain

NES Member
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
13,209
Likes
12,398
Some fair points below, though some may need additional qualification. My comments in green.

Back to the 1858. We are talking about the fastest reload possible in a revolver, sans a Jerry Miculek talent using personalized hardware. No revolver reloads as quickly as an 1858 with extra cylinders in practiced hands. None, whether double or single action. With the Remington you simply drop out the old, roll in the new, set pin, snap lever, cock and fire. Practiced hands or not, there are too many opportunities to fumble a reload with a BP extra cylinder. Accuracy is far and away superior to any modern design autoloader. Perhaps- a quality cap and ball can be surprisingly accurate. No argument against accuracy. The 15 shots will do him no good as those light guns with squirt gun triggers, are bouncing all over the place in rapid fire as your own eye easily acquires that long sight plane and your finger touches off that 3 pound trigger which has no creep and a crisp break. In order to make a fair comparison, one must consider one of the longer sight radius tupperware guns such as the Glock 34. Here's Keanu Reeves training for one of the John Wick movies- try this with cap and ball: The 1858 is the ONLY single action revolver which can be realistically utilized as a combat handgun, as in being used in a protracted engagement and not merely for the purpose of possible personal defense. An entertaining thought, but considering ANY cap and ball to be a suitable option for modern combat is complete NONSENSE. The Remington is the ONLY percussion gun for which a conversion cylinder even makes sense to me, to hell with turning screws on Rugers or pulling barrels on Colts. I like the Colts as they are, for cap and ball.

Speaking on ballistics, a .44/.45 black powder, when loaded properly in CnB mode, or utilizing .45 Colt, is bested only by the hotter .357 magnum and .45 super loads. .45 ACP, even in +P, is not the equal of the old Remington in terms of power. Yes, the ballistics are actually quite good in comparison to modern options. A quote from Elmer Keith:
"A percussion sixgun thus loaded will shoot clean all day if you blow your breath through the bore a few times after each six rounds are fired. It will also shoot very accurately if it is a good gun."
"I had one .36 Navy Colt that had a pitted barrel, but with the above load it would cut clover leaves for its six shots, at 20 yards, all day with seated back and head rest and two hands used between the knees to further holding," Keith wrote.
"For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity," Keith wrote. "Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun.”

The cowboy load crap is just that,- crap. NO, it's designed for a specific purpose- to win the 'game' of cowboy action shooting. In the real world these guns shoot untold amounts of standard pressure .45 Colt of all incarnations, and yes, I do mean modern jacketed bullets as well. The Remington is at least as strong as a SAA, and while SLIGHTLY inferior to the Ruger old army in strength, neither is a Blackhawk, and neither will handle hot .45 Colt - forget that. Old Vaqueros will handle hot .45 Colt. Otherwise Glock 20 with hot loads will have far superior terminal ballistics.

These guns are ridiculously high quality. A manufacturer who is going to provide you with a product which has a superior finish without tooling marks, and markets their own cartridge versions of the same guns, is not about to screw you with lousy materials for a base. American gunmakers need to learn a few things from the Italians about how to provide quality products to the consumer. The spaghetti sixguns are certainly capable of having superior quality, but I would not say that is universally true for all Italian makes.

I recommend the 8" variation, as size matters more in black powder mode. And forget black powder, use 777 or trailboss. Yes, good advice.

I have spoken.

Back to the 1858. We are talking about the fastest reload possible in a revolver, sans a Jerry Miculek talent using personalized hardware. No revolver reloads as quickly as an 1858 with extra cylinders in practiced hands. None, whether double or single action. With the Remington you simply drop out the old, roll in the new, set pin, snap lever, cock and fire. Practiced hands or not, there are too many opportunities to fumble a reload with a BP extra cylinder. Accuracy is far and away superior to any modern design autoloader. Perhaps- a quality cap and ball can be surprisingly accurate. No argument against accuracy. The 15 shots will do him no good as those light guns with squirt gun triggers, are bouncing all over the place in rapid fire as your own eye easily acquires that long sight plane and your finger touches off that 3 pound trigger which has no creep and a crisp break. In order to make a fair comparison, one must consider one of the longer sight radius tupperware guns such as the Glock 34. Here's Keanu Reeves training for one of the John Wick movies- try this with cap and ball: The 1858 is the ONLY single action revolver which can be realistically utilized as a combat handgun, as in being used in a protracted engagement and not merely for the purpose of possible personal defense. An entertaining thought, but considering ANY cap and ball to be a suitable option for modern combat is complete NONSENSE. The Remington is the ONLY percussion gun for which a conversion cylinder even makes sense to me, to hell with turning screws on Rugers or pulling barrels on Colts. I like the Colts as they are, for cap and ball.

Speaking on ballistics, a .44/.45 black powder, when loaded properly in CnB mode, or utilizing .45 Colt, is bested only by the hotter .357 magnum and .45 super loads. .45 ACP, even in +P, is not the equal of the old Remington in terms of power. Yes, the ballistics are actually quite good in comparison to modern options. A quote from Elmer Keith:
"A percussion sixgun thus loaded will shoot clean all day if you blow your breath through the bore a few times after each six rounds are fired. It will also shoot very accurately if it is a good gun."
"I had one .36 Navy Colt that had a pitted barrel, but with the above load it would cut clover leaves for its six shots, at 20 yards, all day with seated back and head rest and two hands used between the knees to further holding," Keith wrote.
"For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity," Keith wrote. "Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun.”

The cowboy load crap is just that,- crap. NO, it's designed for a specific purpose- to win the 'game' of cowboy action shooting. In the real world these guns shoot untold amounts of standard pressure .45 Colt of all incarnations, and yes, I do mean modern jacketed bullets as well. The Remington is at least as strong as a SAA, and while SLIGHTLY inferior to the Ruger old army in strength, neither is a Blackhawk, and neither will handle hot .45 Colt - forget that. Old Vaqueros will handle hot .45 Colt. Otherwise Glock 20 with hot loads will have far superior terminal ballistics.

These guns are ridiculously high quality. A manufacturer who is going to provide you with a product which has a superior finish without tooling marks, and markets their own cartridge versions of the same guns, is not about to screw you with lousy materials for a base. American gunmakers need to learn a few things from the Italians about how to provide quality products to the consumer. The spaghetti sixguns are certainly capable of having superior quality, but I would not say that is universally true for all Italian makes.

I recommend the 8" variation, as size matters more in black powder mode. And forget black powder, use 777 or trailboss. Yes, good advice.

I have spoken.

The cap and ball system has moved out of the mainstream and into the hobbyist realm for multiple reasons. Reliability may be the most important of those reasons.


If the only hindrance to superior performance in a life and death situation is 'proper hands', elite forces would be training their teams to take advantage of this secret weapon. While the 1858 is a fine weapon and perhaps deserves more accolades than it has received, to claim that it is superior in a modern combat or self defense scenario is complete nonsense. Usually I read such fanciful claims and leave them alone, but for posterity I think this thread deserves a reality check in case some enthusiastic new shooter should be led astray.

Oh, I can think of one scenario that positions the 1858 as the superior choice for combat:

A prohibited person unable to obtain a modern hand gun.
 
Last edited:

cams

NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
5,874
Likes
19,539
Location
Boston
Excellent. That was a test to see if Frank had you tied to a kitchen chair somewhere. No way he could’ve made corrections that fast. lol
 
Last edited:

Mountain

NES Member
Rating - 100%
21   0   0
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
13,209
Likes
12,398
Excellent. That was a test to see if Frank had you tied to a kitchen chair somewhere. No way he couldn’t made corrections that fast. lol

I'm getting pretty good at using the talk to type feature:

ApprehensiveTotalGalapagosalbatross-size_restricted.gif
 
Top Bottom