Supreme Court Urged To Reject Ghost Gun Ban - Tuesday is the big day!

Reptile

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Update (1700ET): The US Supreme Court extended a temporary order letting the Biden administration keep enforcing a regulation applying to build-at-home “ghost guns.”

The order from Justice Samuel Alito gives the high court until next Tuesday to decide how to handle the case.

A federal trial judge in Texas threw out the regulation, and the Biden administration is seeking to put that ruling on hold while the case is on appeal. Alito previously had paused the lower court order until Friday.

 
”President Joe Biden said in April 2022 that privately made guns, which are often made with gun kits, are the “weapons of choice for many criminals.”

That month the DOJ issued a rule requiring individuals who assemble homemade firearms to add serial numbers to them. The rule also mandated background checks for consumers who purchase the kits from dealers.

“This rule will make it harder for criminals and other prohibited persons to obtain untraceable guns,” U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland said at the time.”


The First Rule of violent crime, is have a gun. The Second Rule of violent crime, is don’t get caught. Despite the vast majority of the 400 million plus firearms in the US bearing serial numbers, violent criminals are doing very well complying with these two simple rules of violent crime. They don’t even have to be taught the rules! Fewer than 1 in 5 murders and 1 in 10 violent assaults result in a felony conviction. Thanks to serialized firearms?

Is a major infringement of civil rights worth a small, incremental impact on violent crime? Violent crime came before alcohol, drugs, tobacco, firearms & explosives and will remain after all possible litigating policies are forced on a society. “Ghost Gun Crime” is just an extension of the intersectionality demon let loose by Liberals, who like to multiply the ”threats to Democracy” to rile up their base.

Humans are subject to the Conjunction Fallacy, where we consider odds of something happening to be higher when an occurrence is made to sound more likely by adding more constraining, but more convincing, story detail. Odds of being a victim of a violent crime, of being a victim of a violent crime with a gun, or of being a victim of a violent crime with a ghost gun appear to increase, but actually decrease, as adding to the convincing story subdivides the total odds. (See Rationality, Steven Plinker 2021).

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The odds of being killed by an axe wielding armadillo are very slim, but never zero.
Are you willing to take that risk?
I've had trouble with armadillos before. In Ararillo TX, no less. Never been attacked by one of those creatures holding an axe but armadillos threatened me with knives.

Just in case one comes at me with an axe - I will remain armed!
 
The odds of being killed by an axe wielding armadillo are very slim, but never zero.
Are you willing to take that risk?
I'll take a risk over absolute certainty dressed up as law.

OIP.RPrS0N7nQbZtz_ANBXe22AHaEc
 
SCOTUS has a track record of allowing the lower courts first dibs on 2A cases, so my guess is they'll let the order stand.

That's exactly the kind of decision that blue states want. They want the existing rule to stand just long enough so that they can put laws in place while the original case is winding its way through the courts slow walking it every step of the way for the next 10 years. Then it makes it doubly hard to overturn the rules. I wish SCOTUS had some balls and would deal these people the death knell they should be feeling. At least as a starting point start with something like "Yes the rule can stay in place for 6 months, however, it's unconstitutional and will not survive scrutiny. Enforcement of this law is highly problematic and the rule of lenity must be applied in all cases". But again all that seems stupid. "Hey we got ourselves a bad law here and we need to fix it. What should we do? rest of scotus: Yawn"
 

Looks like the ghost gun ban stays.
What's up with Barrett?
She's a woman and other than Boebert "conservative" women in politics are extremely weak on gun rights.

I had a feeling she was and other than Bruen she is proving to be the weak link on 2A cases among the 6 GOP justices on SCOTUS.

Barrett appears to love her some police state.
 
I would expect anymore executive orders or ATF rulings/interpretations dealing with 2A that are struck down by lower courts will be froze by SCOTUS on emergency appeal.

This court absolutely sucks, they want 2A cases slow walked thru the appellate courts and I believe that if by some chance AWB or mag capacities get thru the circuits this Supreme Court will deny cert until there is a split.

Which means we're going to be waiting for a fukking decade on these jerkoffs.

Roberts so far has been pretty decent on 2A cases, but I see Barrett as a Jezebel, she's not trustworthy on 2A, she probably only agreed on Bruen because she didn't want to be in the minority opinion.
 
I would expect anymore executive orders or ATF rulings/interpretations dealing with 2A that are struck down by lower courts will be froze by SCOTUS on emergency appeal.

This court absolutely sucks, they want 2A cases slow walked thru the appellate courts and I believe that if by some chance AWB or mag capacities get thru the circuits this Supreme Court will deny cert until there is a split.

Which means we're going to be waiting for a fukking decade on these jerkoffs.

Roberts so far has been pretty decent on 2A cases, but I see Barrett as a Jezebel, she's not trustworthy on 2A, she probably only agreed on Bruen because she didn't want to be in the minority opinion.
Spot on. It emboldens States like MA to pass all kinds of anti-gun laws knowing full well how long it will take SCOTUS to hear the case.
 
Barrett is not a conservative. Trump got fooled on her nomination.
Trusting the Federalist Society which promptly, openly, and proudly stabbed him in, and the entire country, the back after the election was a mistake. He should have appointed that anti-communist Cuban-American woman from Florida or gone back to John Hardiman.
 
What happened with this today.
Oral arguments weren’t great. It’s gonna be a very close call, could be 5-4 vote in either direction. Incredibly real chance we could lose this case. ACB is the swing vote, think Chief Justice Roberts is going to side with the liberals here, and the other conservatives will be on the pro-2A side.
 
Think this article has a little lean to it?
Slate article
Lawyers with bad arguments in defense of terrible causes are on a winning streak at this Supreme Court. The conservative supermajority often seems committed to laundering feeble and nutty arguments into plausible-sounding law on behalf of right-wing litigants. It was therefore more gratifying than it should have been on Tuesday to hear the court regain its sanity, if only temporarily, to smack down the ghost gun industry’s bid for resurrection. A clear majority of the justices appears poised to uphold a Biden administration rule that has effectively put this industry—which sells untraceable guns that are disproportionately used in crimes—out of business. These justices did not mask their irritation with the lower court judges who tried to save the ghost gun companies, along with their criminal clientele, by warping the law beyond all recognition. Nor did the justices conceal their distaste, verging on mocking contempt, for the lawyer whom these merchants of death handpicked to make their case to SCOTUS. Real law is back at the Supreme Court, and even if it’s for one case only, the development remains worthy of celebration.

That case, Garland v. VanDerStok, is partly a cautionary tale about pride before the fall. Starting around 2017, online gun companies scaled up a new business model: selling kits directly to consumers with all the parts needed to assemble a functioning firearm. Customers could purchase the gun without a background check and put it together in as little as 20 minutes with the help of a YouTube video; the resulting firearm would have no serial number, rendering it untraceable by law enforcement. These businesses boasted about circumventing federal law, assuring buyers that they did not “have to worry” about a background check and could use their “unmarked and unserialized” weapon without any “documentation” that would trace it to them. One company printed an image of a raised middle finger on a product with the text: “Here’s your serial number.” This model operated as an assault weapon.

The number of ghost guns used in violent crimes promptly skyrocketed in cities across the country, with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives reporting a 1,000 percent increase between 2017 and 2021. So, in 2022, Biden’s ATF proposed a new rule that would finally limit the sale of these weapons nationwide. The agency announced that gun kit sellers had to comply with the requirements that apply to other gun dealers—including serialization and a background check. For support, it cited the Gun Control Act of 1968, which applies to any combination of parts that “may readily be converted” into a firing weapon.

ATF’s rule devastated the ghost gun industry, which catered to customers with criminal records who would flunk a background check. After it took effect in 2023, the industry largely collapsed, and the number of ghost guns collected at crime scenes plummeted. Now the companies are begging SCOTUS to strike down the rule and allow them to continue flooding the streets with untraceable firearms.

The Supreme Court has actually dealt with VanDerStok before. When ATF tried to implement the ghost guns rule, the far-right U.S. District Judge Reed O’Connor issued a sweeping injunction blocking it nationwide. The equally fringe-right U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit declined to halt his decision blocking the new regulation. The Supreme Court then stepped in, freezing O’Connor’s decision and letting the rule go into effect. It was a 5–4 vote, with Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Amy Coney Barrett joining the three liberals. O’Connor then defied SCOTUS, issuing yet another injunction protecting two major sellers—which the 5th Circuit again declined to halt; this time, the Supreme Court froze O’Connor’s decision with no noted dissents. Remarkably, the 5th Circuit failed to take the hint, and purported to strike down the rule nationwide. That’s why Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar was back at SCOTUS on Tuesday seeking an end to the merry-go-round of lower court lawlessness.

Tuesday’s arguments revealed two things: Roberts and Barrett have zero sympathy for the ghost gun industry, and they are unmistakably sick of this never-ending case. Again, the legal question is not difficult: Under federal law, parts that “may readily be converted” to fire a bullet are a firearm, so their sale must comply with the usual regulations, including needing a serial number and background check. Justice Samuel Alito predictably tried to muddle this legal clarity, asking Prelogar: “If I put out on a counter some eggs, some chopped-up ham, some chopped-up pepper, and onions, is that a western omelet?” Prelogar said no, because unlike the parts in a ghost gun kit, “those items have well-known other uses to become something other than an omelet.” Barrett then chimed in: “Would your answer change if you ordered it from HelloFresh and you got a kit, and it was like, turkey chili, but all of the ingredients are in the kit?” Prelogar agreed that this was “the more apt analogy here.”

As this exchange illustrates, Barrett seemed eager to knock down bad arguments all morning. At one point, she cited a risible claim made by Judge Andrew Oldham, a Trump appointee on the 5th Circuit. “So Judge Oldham expressed concern that because AR-15 receivers can be readily converted into machine gun receivers, that this regulation on its face turns everyone who lawfully owns an AR-15 into a criminal,” Barrett told Prelogar.

“That is wrong,” Prelogar responded. “We are not suggesting that a statutory reference to one thing includes all other separate and distinct things that might be readily converted into the thing that’s listed in the statute itself.” Because, well, of course the solicitor general is not making such an asinine argument. It’s just a straw man that Oldham dreamed up to defend ghost gun buyers—whom he depicted, with a straight face, as noble, “law-abiding” gunsmiths partaking in a grand American “tradition of self-made arms.”

When Peter A. Patterson approached the lectern to defend the ghost gun industry, he faced almost withering skepticism from Barrett and Roberts. Patterson argued that the court should allow ATF to regulate only firearms that have been completed with “critical machining operations.” But, Barrett pointed out, that language “doesn’t appear in the statute,” adding sharply: “It seems a little made-up.” Patterson also tried to promote the idea that ghost gun companies weren’t intentionally skirting the law by selling “frames or receivers,” the core component of a firearm, that could be transformed into a functioning weapon by drilling a few holes. Roberts was not buying it.

“Just what is the purpose of selling a receiver without the holes drilled in it?” the chief justice asked.

“Well, just like some individuals enjoy, like, working on their car every weekend, some individuals want to construct their own firearm,” Patterson responded.

“Well, I mean, drilling a hole or two, I would think, doesn’t give the same sort of reward that you get from working on your car on the weekends,” the chief retorted. Patterson did not seem to realize that Roberts was making fun of him; he asserted that it’s actually very difficult to put together a ghost gun, citing an article by a journalist who struggled to assemble one himself. “I don’t know the skills of the particular reporter,” Roberts said, “but my understanding is that it’s not terribly difficult for someone to do this.” He pointed out that some ghost guns are assembled by removing plastic pieces. “Is that part of the gunsmithing?” he added dryly.

Patterson insisted that making minor modifications to a mostly assembled gun qualifies as gunsmithing. Roberts was not convinced, asking: “I’m suggesting that if someone who goes through the process of drilling the one or two holes and taking the plastic out, he really wouldn’t think that he has built that gun, would he?” Patterson told the chief: “I don’t know what that person would think, but I think he would.” It did not sound like a winning argument.

The low point for Patterson arrived when Roberts asked his colleagues if they had any final questions. Usually, justices use this opportunity to slip in a last objection or concern. This time, they were silent. Nobody wanted to hear another word from the ghost gun guy.

In fairness, Justices Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch peppered Patterson with favorable softballs, some of which the attorney bafflingly whiffed. (At one point, Thomas was nearly pleading with Patterson to give the answer he wanted to hear.) Alito will likely side with him as well. But even Kavanaugh—who voted to preserve the lower courts’ nationwide block on ATF’s rule last year—has seemingly come around to Prelogar’s side. “Your statutory interpretation has force,” Kavanaugh told the solicitor general, then suggested that he previously voted against the rule because it might ensnare innocent people. He solicited “assurances” from Prelogar that the government would not prosecute a seller “who is truly not aware that they are violating the law,” which she provided. Meanwhile, Kavanaugh didn’t bother to ask Patterson a single question. By the end of arguments, you could practically hear the 6–3 majority clicking into place.

A victory for ATF in VanDerStok will be a triumph for sane judging and commonsense gun safety laws; it will also literally save countless people’s lives. But there’s a dark cloud overhead: If Trump wins in November, he will direct ATF to rescind the rule, since it was his administration that allowed ghost gun sellers to flourish in the first place. Put bluntly, VanDerStok only matters if Trump loses. Perhaps the takeaway from Tuesday, then, is that wins at the Supreme Court, however gratifying, are still not enough. Anyone who would rather not risk being shot by a ghost gun needs to vote like their life depends on it.
 
I dunno. The bumpstock thing looked a bit hinky when it was in oral arguments. OTOH, this is showing hte court's desire to stick wtihin teh framework of "the fedboiz need to control this."

It's sad that a group of judges can't look and say, "Look, the law didn't provide for this. And, as such, you're SOL unless Congress creates a new law."

I'm still waiting for hte Peanut Gallery to come up with some strange conspiracy theory on the justices - I mean beyond teh one we've already had. LOL
 
I dunno. The bumpstock thing looked a bit hinky when it was in oral arguments. OTOH, this is showing hte court's desire to stick wtihin teh framework of "the fedboiz need to control this."

It's sad that a group of judges can't look and say, "Look, the law didn't provide for this. And, as such, you're SOL unless Congress creates a new law."

I'm still waiting for hte Peanut Gallery to come up with some strange conspiracy theory on the justices - I mean beyond teh one we've already had. LOL

Congress has yet to pass a legitimate gun related law. Same with the states and the pretend agencies like ATF. Without exception, every single such law/rule is unconstitutional per the Second Amendment. It would take a NEW Constitutional Amendment to legitimize ANY gun law.

There are plenty of other valid laws miscreants can legitimately be charged with, but making, buying owning or selling firearms are not among them.

My views may not be in alignment with that of the government and accordingly I go along with the joke that they're valid.
 
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Oral arguments weren’t great. It’s gonna be a very close call, could be 5-4 vote in either direction. Incredibly real chance we could lose this case. ACB is the swing vote, think Chief Justice Roberts is going to side with the liberals here, and the other conservatives will be on the pro-2A side.
Ah yes, it’s that time of year when Chief Roberts is sent screenshots of the videos of him doing some vile act to remind him of his obligations to the elites.
 
Mark Smith, Four Boxes Diner, opines a bit more on the VanDerStok case.

"In SCOTUS, the question arose: if you can “readily convert” a piece of metal into a frame and make it a firearm under federal GCA, then why can’t ATF argue that a semi automatic rifle with a few minor modifications is “readily convertible” into a machine gun? Mark Smith for Boxes Diner flagged this issue before and it arose in VanDerStok oral argument. "


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip9stuqUgvU
 
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