Tannerite for cannons?

one-eyed Jack

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Son Lance in NH tells me that he was at a pal's house when he wheeled out a big cannon, charged it with tannerite and a cast concrete projectile. Says that the muzzle blast was quite something. I thought that you had to shoot at tannerite and the impact set if off? Never heard of using concrete projectiles? Is someone pulling my leg? What do you cannon guys have to say? Jack.
 
Concrete must wear out the barrel pretty quickly. Boris uses concrete projos in his massive hand cannon I believe with a wad.
 
Doesn't Tannerite detonate??? Sorry to be harsh but that sounds like a Darwin in the making. I'd advise your son to stay a looooong way away from that. Difference between a propellant and an explosive- one is only for breaking stuff the other will push projectiles.
 
It's common to fill cans with concrete or plaster of paris as a projectile.

I don't think "tannerite" can function in place of black powder, most common is Hodgdon's Pyrodex-RS or maybe Goex Fg for very large bore.
 
No clue as to the tannerite as the charge, but pretty much everything has been a projectile. Stone cannon shot was common, way back...I mean, they were just laying on the ground, and just needed a little work.

It is just a movie, but in Master and Commander there is a scene where the ship's crew is "rearming" by chinking stones into cannonballs.
 
Doesn't Tannerite detonate??? Sorry to be harsh but that sounds like a Darwin in the making. I'd advise your son to stay a looooong way away from that. Difference between a propellant and an explosive- one is only for breaking stuff the other will push projectiles.


No, it actually deflagrates, it is not a high order explosive but I still wouldn't be using it in a cannon.

I don't know how Jacks son's friend is setting it off in the breech of a cannon.



If anyone has been to Knob Creek and seen the guy with the home made cannon on the trailer, that guy uses 3-4 pounds of black powder as a charge to propel a gatorade bottle full of 690gr .50bmg bullets. It is a muzzle loaded cannon ignited by a fuse.
The barrel was made by a company that makes tank barrels and is properly engineered ( over engineered) material wise.

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It is just a movie, but in Master and Commander there is a scene where the ship's crew is "rearming" by chinking stones into cannonballs.
I believe what they were doing was cleaning corrosion off the cannon balls that were pulled from the hold, where they were used as ballast
 
It would take some effort, but maybe this cannon has a breach and a firing pin for a .223 or similar round to fire a projectile at the tannerite inside?

That would actually be pretty neat.

On a separate note, is there anyone on here from Mass that actually has a "cannoneer" license?
 
There are some threads on the cannoneer license. I remmeber looking into it a few years ago but I never got it, I forget exactly what was such a pain, I think I needed to be sponsored or needed a recommendation and said f*ck it.

I just wanted to get for the sake of having one.
 
DAMN!! You Mass guys need a license for cannon too?!

That cannon above at Knob Creek. I had him shoot it once for me. He was using coffee cans full of concrete back then. One hell of a boom standing directly behind it.


RC
 
There are some threads on the cannoneer license. I remmeber looking into it a few years ago but I never got it, I forget exactly what was such a pain, I think I needed to be sponsored or needed a recommendation and said f*ck it.

I just wanted to get for the sake of having one.

Yeah, you need someone with a license to either sponsor you or train you or whatever. Anyone can get a unicorn license, just get a licensed unicorn to sign your application and take a unicorn class nobody teaches. Probably $100/yr, too.
 

What you need for Apply for a License to Shoot Cannon and Mortars
You need a license (certificate of competency) to shoot a cannon or mortar in Massachusetts.
You must pass an exam and CORI background check.
This license is valid for 5 years.
There is no fee for the license or a renewal.
 

What you need for Apply for a License to Shoot Cannon and Mortars
You need a license (certificate of competency) to shoot a cannon or mortar in Massachusetts.
You must pass an exam and CORI background check.
This license is valid for 5 years.
There is no fee for the license or a renewal.
Screenshot_20200628-234807_Chrome.jpg

Do we have any cannoneers on NES?

And you need to study this:

Screenshot_20200628-235009_Drive.jpg
 
I think that they're actually cleaning lumps of corrosion from cast-iron shot, but I'll look more closely next time it's on.

Correct. Chipping rust.

The movie “Master and Commander” is based in the Aubrey/Maturin series of novels by Patrick O’Brian. The jury is out on how extensive his own sailing experience was, but the series was edited by Richard Ollard, who was a naval historian (taught at the Royal Naval College in Greenwich), and is a very accurate portrayal of naval life and sailing warships during the Napoleonic era.

R
 
I thought it would be one of those odd but cool things to have, a cannoneers license. It's the "endorsement" that makes it so dumb since it's so rare. I think I saw online someone was charging in excess of 500$ to give you some reading material and then endorse you.
 
I understand the difference between detonation and deflagration but isn't black powder considered an explosive? Yet it's been used as a muzzleloading propellant for centuries. I can't figure out how he's setting it off in the breach of a cannon
 
I understand the difference between detonation and deflagration but isn't black powder considered an explosive? Yet it's been used as a muzzleloading propellant for centuries. I can't figure out how he's setting it off in the breach of a cannon
Deflagration is still an explosion.

for reference, here's the CFR that defines some of the terms folks are throwing around: 27 CFR § 555.11 - Meaning of terms.
Explosives. Any chemical compound, mixture, or device, the primary or common purpose of which is to function by explosion. The term includes, but is not limited to, dynamite and other high explosives, black powder, pellet powder, initiating explosives, detonators, safety fuses, squibs, detonating cord, igniter cord, and igniters.​
Propellant actuated device.
(a) Any tool or special mechanized device or gas generator system that is actuated by a propellant or which releases and directs work through a propellant charge.​
(b) The term does not include -​
(1) Hobby rocket motors consisting of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives, regardless of amount; and​
(2) Rocket-motor reload kits that can be used to assemble hobby rocket motors containing ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives, regardless of amount.​

High-order Explosives (HE) detonate, even in open air; i.e. their pressure front moves faster than the speed of sound, resulting in a shock wave. Common examples are nitroglycerine, ANFO, flash powder.
Low-order Explosives (LE) deflagrate, even in a container; i.e. they develop gas pressure quickly, but not quickly enough to outrun sound. Common examples are gunpowder, [unpressurized] gasoline, model rocket motors.

Black powder is LE, so yes it is an explosive. I haven't been able to (quickly) find a source that gives me confidence on the classification of Tannerite, though its patent language includes the word detonate, so I'd be willing to believe that it is HE.

It's certainly possible to use HE to drive a projectile. Maybe this makes me a coward, but I'd stand far away and wear a cup. ;)
 
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Tannerite turns into a wet sloppy mess when it contacts a flame. It is hygroscopic as hell and takes a super sonic shockwave to set it off, therefore in general handling it is very stable.

BP ( made with potassium nitrate ) is only very slightly hygroscopic and ignites readily when incontact with a flame and burns fast enough to be considered an explosive but it is very low on the scale.
 
Way to nerd-snipe me, @one-eyed Jack

It's possible we're looking at this backwards. It's easy to assume Bubba is jamming a cinder block into a Thunder Mug. What if the neighbor actually knows what he's getting into?

An over-designed barrel could be made to support it. For example, if this cannon had a bore sized for a soda can, with properly heat-treated walls a foot thick, and he used a charge that was only like an ounce of Tannerite, that might sound less scary, right? Obviously, somewhere between these two extremes, things will get hazy, but we have historically used HE (e.g. nitroglycerine both on its own and in combination with LE) as a propellant. I'd expect it to burn up barrels, but I also bet it yields an incredibly fast projectile on a relatively small charge...provided the projectile doesn't disintegrate under acceleration.

Suddenly, I'm imagining using that soda can as a jacket; the soft aluminum would probably work pretty well. Not that it's in the barrel for long, but cast iron or carbon steel would be close enough that there's basically no risk of galvanic corrosion from whatever gilding you leave between shots. The hollow on the bottom would naturally direct the pressure into the base and try to drive it along the barrel. You could probably have a slip fit between the bore and the slug, and still gain sufficient acceleration while decreasing the chance of over-pressure.

Still wearing a cup...
 
I’m aware of a homemade cannon that fires soup cans filled with concrete in front of 3oz. Of black powder. Pretty fun, but not terrible accurate. It uses .22 blanks to ignite the charge.
 
Suddenly, I'm imagining using that soda can as a jacket; the soft aluminum would probably work pretty well. Not that it's in the barrel for long, but cast iron or carbon steel would be close enough that there's basically no risk of galvanic corrosion from whatever gilding you leave between shots. The hollow on the bottom would naturally direct the pressure into the base and try to drive it along the barrel. You could probably have a slip fit between the bore and the slug, and still gain sufficient acceleration while decreasing the chance of over-pressure.
Common larger hobbyist cannons are sold in bore sizes such as "golf ball", "Progresso soup", and yes, "soda can".
 
Common larger hobbyist cannons are sold in bore sizes such as "golf ball", "Progresso soup", and yes, "soda can".
Right. And they note to not use smokeless powder. I have to assume this is because the powder measure they provide is intentionally sized for black powder, and they don't want anyone to blow it up by using the wrong propellant...they'd probably shit a brick if you called up to ask "what's an appropriate charge of Tannerite in this cannon?"
 
Right. And they note to not use smokeless powder. I have to assume this is because the powder measure they provide is intentionally sized for black powder, and they don't want anyone to blow it up by using the wrong propellant...they'd probably shit a brick if you called up to ask "what's an appropriate charge of Tannerite in this cannon?"

The whole issue with tannerite as a propellant is initiating it in the bore. You'd have to have a super sonic rifle shot or a blasting cap, neither of which would be practical ( sans an explosives license for caps).
Using any rifle shot would introduce the problem of excessive pressure back into the bore of the rifle mechanism.
Using caps, ( a controlled munition) would require a blasting license at minimum and would not be very practical for the average hobby noise maker.
 
The key here is denotation velocity. BP can "detonate" but fastest it can burn is three times less what ATF considers it "high explosive". Smokeless powder when contained, can also detonate very fast in the same ball park as Tannerite.

The velocity determines how fast pressure builds up. With BP, it happens rather slowly, allowing for metal to flex. High explosives will rip right through, i.e. HE shape charges don't even need containment, placed on a steel plate they will rip right through it by virtue of the pressure wave going so fast that you don't even need to contain them in a chamber to create enough pressure to punch through. It's like pushing on a plate with a hydraulic jack vs slamming it with a hammer, rapid application of force, shock, will shatter more brittle parts.

Using Tannerite instead of BP in a cannon is a bad idea. It could be done with walls thick enough up to a point, but it's a bad idea, even worse than smokeless, probably. Places that build tank cannons also have special inspection and test equipment most shops don't have to make sure that chamber walls not only can take the hit, but there are not imperfections that with time could lead to explosion.

Another thing that's hard to believe is that his concrete is actually stays in one piece. That 1 bore hand cannon that I built, if try to push chulk projectile too fast, it just desintegrates into fine powder (because of shock) Concrete is stronger, but still, there is some finite limit, how fast you can shock and accelerate it without turning it into dust. In some way it's a "safety" measure. The chalk rounds with even highest load would not be able to hurt you, but loading with lead projectile it would take your shoulder clean out.
 
This is also a good channel, probably puts you on another list among many:



so I guess legally, using smokeless in anything else than 50cal or under rifles, you need federal explosive license, also for BP in a commercial enterprise (like making money with vids on youtube) [rofl] Awesome vid, in case you didn't know another 1000s ways we are felons without even knowing it.
 
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