Tense Situation

[AHM]

When does the statute of limitations run out?

Certainly not before my license does.

... a lot of these responses make me wonder why people carry in the first place. Lot of fear of defending oneself. I wouldn’t have brandished, but I’m also not taking a beating when I have the ability to defend myself.

Perhaps you're suffering cognitive dissonance
because you're confusing the PRM with America.

In most jurisdictions, many people choose to carry
to protect innocent bystanders as well as themselves.

But Massachusetts even discourages self-help.

So Massprudent gun owners can best help
by acting as good witnesses;
and giving innocent bystanders the space to
defend themselves with their own CCWs.

Sure hope they've got their own CCWs...

 

[MisterHappy]

Looking back into it your are absolutely right. I am a young guy and I let ego get the better of me at that point, incredibly stupid of me.

War is young men dying and old men talking. You know this.

Or the T. Either way, it fits.

 

[42!]

IANAL but in my opinion, the laws im MA make it practically a requirement that you shoot as soon as you draw. Since showing or drawing a firearm is a threat unless your life is in danger, there is simply no acceptable reason, in the eyes of the court, to not immediately shoot when you draw. If the threat is immediate, why wouldn't you draw and shoot? If you don't shoot, the threat wasn't immediate, so you where committing an assault.

BTW Multiple attackers. Clear intent. Under 20'. That's imminent threat to life. Under those conditions, what do you lawyers think?

 

[AHM]

BTW Multiple attackers. Clear intent. Under 20'. That's imminent threat to life. Under those conditions, what do you lawyers think?

(MLTPLIMITSAEW, but) you're right to identify those factors.
Are they maybe even Brancaprudent?

 

[Mike Stanton]

Carry Pepper Spray.
Always.
If that does not work, shoot.
Who does it help if you are crippled by some imbeciles?
Losing Teeth or an Eye is a serious matter. Make them pay.
IMHO.

 

[Racenet]

 

[garandman]

Should have just taken the BJ and called it a night! Seriously though, a lot of these responses make me wonder why people carry in the first place. Lot of fear of defending oneself. I wouldn’t have brandished, but I’m also not taking a beating when I have the ability to defend myself.

You ever ridden the T? Specifically, the Red Line?

There are stops every couple minutes. You can walk out of one car and into another and those people are out of your life forever.

Trying to use a firearm in a moving rail car full of people is a spectacularly dumb idea. Most assaults happen after someone leaves the rail station and that’s where you may need it, someday, some way.

 

[Cipher]

As I see it, you have two options. Remember IANAL.

1.) If you wear one of these you won't need to show your gun, they'll just leave you alone.

2.) My preferred method: fire a warning shot. That usually calms everyone down and you can get on with more rational conversation.

I cant stop laughing

 

[Matt_SERE]

As I see it, you have two options. Remember IANAL.

1.) If you wear one of these you won't need to show your gun, they'll just leave you alone.

I cant stop laughing

You received the "Sash and Badge" when you went 'green', didn't you?

 

[ISOTOX]

Hypetheticals are always interesting....

 

[Cipher]

You received the "Sash and Badge" when you went 'green', didn't you?

Indeed. And my "Certified Deescalator" certificate.

 

[falcon123]

There is a long thread here on NES about carrying on the T. I will try to find it.

However, most of your 'what if questions' could be answered by putting away your phone. Maintain situational awareness and you could have nipped this in the bud. You need work with you gun to develop confidence on when to, or not to, pull your pistol. There are consequences to both.

Start with these NES threads:

Confrontation on the MBTA - Why "Refuse to Be a Victim" is a Valuable Course

Boston Subway carry

Carrying concealed on MBTA question

He said that he wasn't interested in playing with her nips. No guarantee of a different outcome if he had nipped her.

 

[falcon123]

Everyone finds themselves in unexpected situations. Shit happens.

So it looks like the “don’ts” have been covered. What happens if you cant back away? Accept a beating or worse (and potentially lose your weapon), or defend yourself? Let’s stipulate the hands up appogizing doesn't do the trick for the sake of the exercise...

Kneecap one of them and see if they stop. If they don't, 2 in the chest then get off at the next stop. Did you have enough ammo for all of them? :emoji_grin:

 

[Mr.E]

The first thing you should have done was to put your phone on record,so if you had to bust a cap into someone you would have proof that your life was in danger.You should always carry pepper spray because sometimes that will be all you need to stop the aggression,and in other cases it will give you the time to retreat,or draw you firearm and take a stand.Always carry yourself like you don't have a gun be ready to run away then to fight,remember one thing the moment you pull that trigger your life is going to be in a world of all f^*ked up.

You know, a lot of armchair quarterbacks here (slight jab at the white trash patriots fans..), a 5 second pepper spray blast against 4 male attackers ? On the T? Yeesh, it would maybe get one and then spray the rest off the windows into HIS eyes. And the whole “get off the train” is BS too. Does anyone here actually take the T and know how impossible that can be (and 100% if it’s packed or stuck between stops) ? About the only thing I agree with so far is that nobody should ever see your firearm until your ready to fire... BUT , in this situation you have to weigh where all the other passengers were. In that situation you have 100% chance of hitting someone else. Only course here is to diffuse or take precaution to potentially aim high (over people’s heads ) if your forced to shoot .

 

[Mr.E]

My BIL and buddy got beat to a pulp on the T after a Bruins game by a group of drunks.

That’s unfortunate, I bet there was a crowd of other drunks watching the entire thing too...about the only thing I hate more than people is GROUPS of people. Crowd mentality is a vicious thing when you have a bunch of drunk lowlifes around

 

[Mr.E]

BTW Multiple attackers. Clear intent. Under 20'. That's imminent threat to life. Under those conditions, what do you lawyers think?

Completely agree .. I hopefully wouldn’t be thinking about if I should, I’d be looking for the safest area to fire when I did .

 

[PATRON]

You know, a lot of armchair quarterbacks here (slight jab at the white trash patriots fans..), a 5 second pepper spray blast against 4 male attackers ? On the T? Yeesh, it would maybe get one and then spray the rest off the windows into HIS eyes. And the whole “get off the train” is BS too. Does anyone here actually take the T and know how impossible that can be (and 100% if it’s packed or stuck between stops) ? About the only thing I agree with so far is that nobody should ever see your firearm until your ready to fire... BUT , in this situation you have to weigh where all the other passengers were. In that situation you have 100% chance of hitting someone else. Only course here is to diffuse or take precaution to potentially aim high (over people’s heads ) if your forced to shoot .

What do you base your statement on?

 

[Mr.E]

What do you base your statement on?

Which part ?

 

[PATRON]

Well I was just wondering if your basing this,on experience,training,or?

 

[ThePreBanMan]

Pepper spray in a confined area hurts you as much as them, and everyone else in the car... Show and tell is a one way ticket to the clink without passing go. Just get off the train, change seats, don't laugh in their face (escalation on your part), and otherwise defuse. If that doesn't work create space. The isles in the cars are fairly narrow. If you keep them in front of you then you limit the ability of the group to work as a group. If they actually get frosty then your down to your only optiona at that point. But you need to do everything you can to keep it from getting there.... Including calling the popo.

 

[slap shot]

Why ever show it? Snubbie in your jacket pocket will fire just fine if needed.

 

[McReef]

Pepper spray in a confined area hurts you as much as them, and everyone else in the car... Show and tell is a one way ticket to the clink without passing go. Just get off the train, change seats, don't laugh in their face (escalation on your part), and otherwise defuse. If that doesn't work create space. The isles in the cars are fairly narrow. If you keep them in front of you then you limit the ability of the group to work as a group. If they actually get frosty then your down to your only optiona at that point. But you need to do everything you can to keep it from getting there.... Including calling the popo.

I was thinking the same thing. As soon as spray was mentioned the news reel started playing in my head. Lots of flashing lights, people sitting on the back bumper of ambulances huffing oxygen, crying babies (and their children, who are also crying), etc, etc...

Every potential witness in that car would instantly turn against you if you unleashed that hell in that sardine can. Probably better off just shooting them (only semi-serious)...

 

[jrpascucci]

The correct answer was already given, but if I may put a fine point on it: your mistake started when you left the house without carrying pepper spray (readily accessible by your weak hand if you don't need to untuck cover garments to draw and fire in under 1.5 seconds, otherwise in your strong hand) as part of your edc kit.

If you're going to draw something to attempt to put a stop to an aggressor, whether it's just 1 or half a dozen dudes, drawing pepper spray and being intent on using it is precisely the right balance of deterrence and lawful escalation (since it does no more than even the odds).

If they continue to escalate (as in, continue to step closer despite knowing the consequences), just use it and take the first step of going to your concealed weapon, and if your life remains in danger, drop the spray, draw and fire with no regrets. (If you're the aggressor and you also draw pepper spray against someone who is armed, you deserve literally whatever you get, including a bullet to the frontal lobe. Pro-tip: don't be the aggressor.)

In all cases, definitely attempt to back off, if possible: make them chase you. And, a very calm and clear "please stop" will be more psychologically effective than an incoherently screamed command.

Practice drawing to and shooting from a retention position with a locked weak arm out (so you don't shoot yourself in the hand if you ever need to do that in real life). If you must, look at center axis relock, do it a bit to feel like John Wick for a few moments of your life, then probably forget about it.

Also, join IDPA/USPSA and actually enter into it: it won't make you a more effective defensive shooter (you need legitimate training, not just advice from the internet), but it will make you a better gun handler and more comfortable.

 

[fshalor]

I don't think a week ever went by without me car bouncing at least once on the redline. Things get sketchy otw to Braintree.

Car- bounce. See something or someone weird and move to next car at next stop.

 

[Mr.E]

Well I was just wondering if your basing this,on experience,training,or?

actually found myself in a somewhat similar situation (albeit it wasnt 4 on 1) not too long ago...on the train. Didn't have pepper spray but it likely would have helped, I kept my head and diffused. But if it was 4 on 1 the last thing I would think about is a silly can of pepper spray. Anything more than 1:1 you have the ability of the other assailant just hitting you and turning it against you. Same with a baton or knife. Best to keep distance (a quick grab from anyone would set the entire thing in motion) and be prepared to diffuse (best response), flee (second best if possible), fire (last resort if 1 and 2 didn't work). When my incident was going down I was trying to determine in my head the best direction to fire if I had to.

 

[Mr.E]

I don't think a week ever went by without me car bouncing at least once on the redline. Things get sketchy otw to Braintree.

Car- bounce. See something or someone weird and move to next car at next stop.

Not always possible but I've done it. Again, anyway stuck in the absolute garbage container that is the T or commuter rail knows that sometimes your options are limited. And as someone pointed out, it's not like these people were wearing signs on their back, I bet 99% of the people on that train were drunk. It probably happened very quickly as it usually does.

 

[garandman]

You know, a lot of armchair quarterbacks here (slight jab at the white trash patriots fans..), a 5 second pepper spray blast against 4 male attackers ? On the T? Yeesh, it would maybe get one and then spray the rest off the windows into HIS eyes. And the whole “get off the train” is BS too. Does anyone here actually take the T and know how impossible that can be (and 100% if it’s packed or stuck between stops) ?

If it’s that packed, there isn’t going to be any battle royal.

Distance between stops is highly variable, though.

 

[keysersoze]

As has already been stated, ego and a lack of attention were the root causes of this. I don't want to pile on the OP but if you aren't smart enough to stay off your phone while out and about and if you're going to smirk when facing a 4 on 1 situation you probably aren't responsible enough for concealed carry. The firearm is a tool to keep you safe, it's not a shield that allows you to be oblivious to the threats around you or to set yourself up to be a victim. I think you're smarter than this.

 

[Mr.E]

If it’s that packed, there isn’t going to be any battle royal.
.

It doesn't take much space to get someone on the ground and foot stomp them...You think any of the other pieces of garbage on the train are going to jump in against an attack? Nope.

 

[Mr.E]

As has already been stated, ego and a lack of attention were the root causes of this. I don't want to pile on the OP but if you aren't smart enough to stay off your phone while out and about and if you're going to smirk when facing a 4 on 1 situation you probably aren't responsible enough for concealed carry. The firearm is a tool to keep you safe, it's not a shield that allows you to be oblivious to the threats around you or to set yourself up to be a victim. I think you're smarter than this.

I think it's hilarious people on this board think they can deploy the "Mack from It's always Sunny Ocular Patdown" Complete BS. On or off the phone the broad still would have grabbed him. I'm sure the other 4 looked like everyone else on the train, pure fat useless white trash with a Patriots Jersey and nasty body odor....