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This, if he's going to flex muscles as an agent of the club his legal advice needs to be correct! He needs some retraining.
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Terrorist paper targets are illegal?
- Thread starter Broc
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This, if he's going to flex muscles as an agent of the club his legal advice needs to be correct! He needs some retraining.
My opinion of him and willingness to assume that Top Shot did more creative editing than we are led to believe went through the roof when did those posters. They are great and speak highly of him as a person.
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I ~think~ the idea is that the club would buy and store the guns and make them available to members (who must also be licensed) to use. It doesn't really make much sense to me...
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There is none.
QFT
This is the ONLY way to get mis-information about rules/laws changed at a club.
Back in 1999 I was told that these targets were "illegal" and that I could be "arrested on sight" during the new member orientation at BR&P. I knew that this was wrong, but being new to the club (and not having the laws in my hand), I let it slide . . . until I got home. Then I cut and pasted the law in an Email to the club president and requested that he inform those giving the orientation the correct info. Next night was the Members Meeting and it was publicly announced, the club president had corrected the individual and that was the last anyone ever heard about such a rule/law at BR&P.
Actually, yeah, you do. I was at a gun shop in NH and this myth was being repeated to customers in the shop. (something along the lines of "these targets are illegal in MA"
This myth has gone so far and wide you would swear that Joseph Goebbels was ressurected from the dead, for the sole purpose of running around to MA and NH gun stores and ranges, telling them about the law in MA that makes it a crime to use silhouette/humanoid targets.![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
-Mike
Hopefully, I have properly educated that person and it is no longer an issue there.
Yes, quite a few passed this as a club rule, thinking it was law. No idea where they still invoke this.
See above story. Almost all the targets I shoot at BR&P are human silhouette targets. Not an issue. Oh yeah, I buy them from the CRO who also holds the club FFL!
QFT. Yes NH has an excellent medical school and hospital (one of each). Boston has multiples of each and infinitely more human research studies (area my Wife works in).
Seattle area does not have "clubs". There are gun shops with rental ranges. Expensive difference. However if you are so inclined to drive a few hours, shooting in the Cascades is very tough to beat. BTDT a few times with some buddies from WA-Shooters and ARfcom.
So the AG can come in and search the premises WITHOUT a search warrant any time he/she chooses. Seriously this is one of the conditions wrt possession of a Club LTC!
No advantage to the club at all.
hahaha, it's not too bad. I'm not actually a fan of ranges, indoor or otherwise because it feels so weird. I much prefer going up into the mountains and shooting. Out west there is room to do it, and few happy shinies to get in the way of it.
The other place she has an interview is LA, I would just go to my old stomping grounds in the Joshua Tree.
Both places though, no real chance for snow, and that's unfortunate.
This for days. Drive a few hours out, maybe stay there a few days, then come back to "civilization."
IF you're lucky, get a little fishing in.
Bill Nance
Banned
Actually, yeah, you do. I was at a gun shop in NH and this myth was being repeated to customers in the shop. (something along the lines of "these targets are illegal in MA"
This myth has gone so far and wide you would swear that Joseph Goebbels was ressurected from the dead, for the sole purpose of running around to MA and NH gun stores and ranges, telling them about the law in MA that makes it a crime to use silhouette/humanoid targets.
-Mike
Dude, you cant find targets like this at any gun store in my town. -not even the one that specializes in "tacticool.
No one would give you shit at the range about anything you wanted to shoot at (Ok, Tannerite at the marked pistol range) but I have to buy my Q-targets and pin-targets on-liine. there isn't any place within 200 miles that carries them. This is serious hunting country. Mostly FUDDS, but with a good attitude. -Bill Ruger's name is MUD here.
Don't blame it on the state, seriously. It's just not a selling commodity in this neck of the woods. -Go figure, we're about as free as you could want with the exception of full-auto or SBRs. (Working on it, we just got suppressors last year).
The rangemaster is mis-informed. Sounds like a good egg really, just has some bad info.
And it more than likely would be Mass General at which my brother is a surgeon. But FWIW, my family is from Arkansas and my brother and I live here since this is where our bread is buttered but we don't really like it here either.
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Yes, there is nothing to compare it with in MA. I parked along a state highway and we just unloaded the guns/gear and walked about 50' to where we were shooting from. [Yes, I have seen people do the same thing in NH a few years ago, just don't try it in E. MA!]
Jbarila
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What is curious is that the law states that licensed clubs must prohibit such targets. It does not state that shooting at such targets, even where prohibited by the club, is a criminal offense.
The law (MGH Ch 140 Sect 131a) does not define violating a club rule against such targets as a criminal offense, nor does it specify the length to which a club must go to enforce said rule.
Furthermore, although other offenses defined in 140-131a also carry a specific penalty (for example, the penalty for violating a LTC restriction, or providing false information on an application), there is no mention of what penalty is applied to a club that holds a club LTC and "fails to prohibit" the target.
So, the questions are:
1) What statutory basis is there for imposing a penalty if the club does not prohibit such targets?
2) What statutory basis is there for a penalty if the club prohibits such targets, but establishes a penalty that is too light (for example, a $1.00 fine after the 100th offense in a year)
3) What statute would someone be charged under if they were caught shooting at such a target at a club that held an LTC and did indeed prohibit such targets?
It's a typical poorly worded law written by someone who was more concerned with passing anything "anti gun" than writing a well crafted enforceable law.
I'm not a member of Danvers, I was a guest. It's about 100 miles away from me. Harvard isn't much closer.
This is a major problem in many areas when it comes to the shooting sports. Most of the old timers have a completely different set of ideas about shooting than the younger generation. Not to generalize too much, but this is the generation that was more than happy to accept ever increasing amounts of gun control. This is the generation that has promoted an "us versus them" attitude within many clubs, usually the shotgun shooters (the so-called good guys) and the pistol/rifle shooters. These are the same people who seemed uncomfortable when they see me open carrying at a gun club.
What each club needs is for more younger people to get involved, volunteer for committees and, most importantly, get on the boards.
Will, I agree . . . and I'm now one of those older people. ![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
But I remember when I was the ONLY one at a club shooting B-27 police silhouette targets, taking shit for open carrying at the club, etc., attending a BOD meeting where the skeet/trap chair asked that the outdoor range be closed when they were shooting as the noise "disturbed them"! The "us" vs. "them" meeting battles between skeet/trap and pistol team, etc. [BTW: I used to shoot skeet/trap then head to the outdoor range afterwards (or indoor in bad weather) mostly by myself.] It was a mere ~35 years ago, but seems like yesterday.
But I remember when I was the ONLY one at a club shooting B-27 police silhouette targets, taking shit for open carrying at the club, etc., attending a BOD meeting where the skeet/trap chair asked that the outdoor range be closed when they were shooting as the noise "disturbed them"! The "us" vs. "them" meeting battles between skeet/trap and pistol team, etc. [BTW: I used to shoot skeet/trap then head to the outdoor range afterwards (or indoor in bad weather) mostly by myself.] It was a mere ~35 years ago, but seems like yesterday.
That doesnt matter, but what is the point of not allowing people to shoot human shaped targets in clubs that have an LTC? I would be more afraid of a guy that can hit a one inch square at 50 feet than of a dude that shoots at a human shaped target at 10 feet and his shots are all over the place.
Next time I go, I will bring Zombie targets, see if they bitch about those.
That is sad. Paper is paper. Does someone really think that a guy putting holes in a picture of his boss would actually make a difference between them deciding to go on a rampage at work or not? Maybe that might tip you off that particular guy is having some tough times but still, it's just a target! And in this case it is a terrorist target....why the hell would we NOT want to shoot at a terrorist??
In my club and in many (most?) other clubs a very small number of people do all the work. The reason that older people are running our club is because no one else volunteers. We've had unopposed elections for decades. Few people other than board members or officers show up to meetings. Getting people to run for the board or an officer position requires significant strong-arming. I was burned out after a dozen years as VP and it took some convincing to get someone to replace me.
If you don't like the policies at your club, then get involved. Start going to meetings. Volunteer to help out, whether it be a range clean-up work party, maintaining the club web site, starting and maintaining a ConstantContact mailing list, or starting a club Facebook page, etc. There is always more work to do at a club then there are people. Be there, help out, and be trustworthy.
Once you start to earn some respect in the organization, run for office. After you get elected to office you will be in a better position to start working on changing the rules. Even after you are elected, you won't get the rules changed overnight. It took me about 10 years get rid of our club's prohibition of concealed carry on club property.
Yes, that takes hard work and patience, which seem to be in short supply today.
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You are making the mistake of thinking there is some logical basis for this law (and other MA laws). There's your mistake -- there is no logic involved.
I believe Rob Boudrie knows the details on this. If I recall correctly (and I might be mistaken), one legiscritter on Bacon Hill was pissed that some constituent was using his picture as a target. So he wanted to ban human silhouette targets in response.
Whoever was writing the bill put that language in the bill, but only for clubs that have an LTC. I'm guessing that they applied this only to clubs with an LTC because they knew it would be a non-issue, but it still allowed them to throw the legiscritter a bone and tell him that the bill banned human silhouette targets. None of the legiscritters (other than that those who drafted the bill) were actually able to read it prior to voting on it, and I suspect most never read it afterwards, so the lie would hold up.
It is possible that this piece of legislation (to put it kindly) got watered down to the point of being meaningless (other than for LTC A clubs and for propaganda / misinformation purposes) by: a) ignorance/sloppy drafting; b) someone with a more reasonable mindset toward 2nd and/or 1st Amendment rights tinkering with it along the way; or c) a combination of A&B.
It could be argued that one has a 1st Amendment right to poke holes in a photo of a politician you don't support. Assuming that you post the target correctly, know what is beyond it and have at least rudimentary marksmanship skills, it seems less dangerous than burning the flag in a public place which has been upheld as a form of "speech".
It could be argued that one has a 1st Amendment right to poke holes in a photo of a politician you don't support. Assuming that you post the target correctly, know what is beyond it and have at least rudimentary marksmanship skills, it seems less dangerous than burning the flag in a public place which has been upheld as a form of "speech".
Billsail
NES Member
Here's the regs:
The colonel of state police may, after an investigation, grant a Class A license to a club or facility with an on-site shooting range or gallery, which club is incorporated under the laws of the commonwealth for the possession, storage and use of large capacity weapons, ammunition therefor and large capacity feeding devices for use with such weapons on the premises of such club; provided, however, that not less than one shareholder of such club shall be qualified and suitable to be issued such license; and provided further, that such large capacity weapons and ammunition feeding devices may be used under such Class A club license only by such members that possess a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B or a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms, or by such other persons that the club permits while under the direct supervision of a certified firearms safety instructor or club member who, in the case of a large capacity firearm, possesses a valid Class A license to carry firearms or, in the case of a large capacity rifle or shotgun, possesses a valid Class A or Class B license to carry firearms. Such club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties.
No large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device shall be removed from the premises except for the purposes of: (i) transferring such firearm or feeding device to a licensed dealer; (ii) transporting such firearm or feeding device to a licensed gunsmith for repair; (iii) target, trap or skeet shooting on the premises of another club incorporated under the laws of the commonwealth and for transporting thereto; (iv) attending an exhibition or educational project or event that is sponsored by, conducted under the supervision of or approved by a public law enforcement agency or a nationally or state recognized entity that promotes proficiency in or education about semiautomatic weapons and for transporting thereto and therefrom; (v) hunting in accordance with the provisions of chapter 131; or (vi) surrendering such firearm or feeding device under the provisions of section 129D. Any large capacity weapon or large capacity feeding device kept on the premises of a lawfully incorporated shooting club shall, when not in use, be secured in a locked container, and shall be unloaded during any lawful transport. The clerk or other corporate officer of such club shall annually file a report with the colonel of state police and the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services listing all large capacity weapons and large capacity feeding devices owned or possessed under such license. The colonel of state police or his designee, shall have the right to inspect all firearms owned or possessed by such club upon request during regular business hours and said colonel may revoke or suspend a club license for a violation of any provision of this chapter or chapter 269 relative to the ownership, use or possession of large capacity weapons or large capacity feeding devices.
It sounds like a regulation to control weapons stored at a club. Meaningless IMO.
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Yes, you are mixed up.
If your club has a Class A LTC then your club must prohibit you from shooting at silhouette targets.
But only about 1 club in MA has a Class A LTC. At all the other clubs, there is no legal prohibition on such targets. Clubs, of course, may have their own silly rules.
As long as your club does not have a Class A LTC it is perfectly legal shoot at pictures of people.
Depending upon the picture, that might be in bad taste, but that is a different question entirely.
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