The U.S. Army wants a new gun.

I've got mags that have been loaded 24x7 for 20+ years.

Hope they work for ya when you need them. I wouldn't trust them especially with someone drawing a bead on me. I always rotated my mags. Always. saw way too many mags that had springs that were junk after being loaded for so long. I was not gonna be screwing with crappy mags on patrol. Almost all of the weapon jams are caused by shitty mags. So why would I increase my chances of a jam when I needed the weapon to work. Need mags loaded-swap them out regularly. I don't care what people say about this. Seen hundreds of mags that were crap because they were loaded for long periods of time. I value my life too much to add another variabable into my weapon working when I need it

Springs are mechanical and will breakdown especially if loaded over years and years.
 
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You know your stuff. Its just a little outdated. There are definatley small arms repairers at bn level now. Every combat arms Bn has a forward support company now......they handle all the logistics......fix fuel feed transport supply. In the "FSC" there is an armament section that does all repairs on all the weapon systems for the bn. The logistics support has been pushed down to Bn level for all combat arms units so the bn commander has a company commander that works for him that knows logistics........and is the principle advisor to the Bn S4

Thanks. Yeah, FSCs were around when I was in. But, you made me remember that our BN just didn't have one due to a lack of an MOS qualified person for that slot, right up towards the end of my time in. I had completely forgotten about her. Thanks for the correction.
 
Hope they work for ya when you need them. I wouldn't trust them especially with someone drawing a bead on me. I always rotated my mags. Always. saw way too many mags that had springs that were junk after being loaded for so long. I was not gonna be screwing with crappy mags on patrol. Almost all of the weapon jams are caused by shitty mags. So why would I increase my chances of a jam when I needed the weapon to work. Need mags loaded-swap them out regularly. I don't care what people say about this. Seen hundreds of mags that were crap because they were loaded for long periods of time. I value my life too much to add another variabable into my weapon working when I need it

Springs are mechanical and will breakdown especially if loaded over years and years.

It's highly dependent on the spring's material composition and how much of a percentage the spring is compressed when fully loaded. I suppose that the cheapo replacement M9 magazines that the Army issues may be made of a substandard metal. A normal magazine's spring should not be reaching its fatigue limit within the span of a normal deployment. That said, storing a magazine fully loaded for 7 years could cause issues with normal springs. Recommendations would be to download magazines by a couple rounds when used in long term storage, and to also check the magazines occasionally to verify that the springs are still good.

On the topic of downloading magazines by a couple rounds, I recommend that as SOP for standard issue aluminum 5.56 magazines. With 30 rounds, the pressure against the rough feed lips is too great and the static friction of the brass against the feed lip will increase likelihood of failure to feed. Downloading to 28 rounds will ease the pressure and allow for a nearly 0 likelihood of failure to feed(as a result of the magazine).

In an operational sense, it's good to rotate magazines every few missions anyway so that you can disassemble them and fully clean them.

Sorry for getting so off-topic.
 
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It's highly dependent on the spring's material composition and how much of a percentage the spring is compressed when fully loaded. I suppose that the cheapo replacement M9 magazines that the Army issues may be made of a substandard metal. A normal magazine's spring should not be reaching its fatigue limit within the span of a normal deployment. That said, storing a magazine fully loaded for 7 years could cause issues with normal springs. Recommendations would be to download magazines by a couple rounds when used in long term storage, and to also check the magazines occasionally to verify that the springs are still good.

On the topic of downloading magazines by a couple rounds, I highly recommend that as SOP for standard issue aluminum 5.56 magazines. With 30 rounds, the pressure against the rough feed lips is too great and the static friction of the brass against the feed lip will increase likelihood of failure to feed. Downloading to 28 rounds will ease the pressure and allow for a nearly 0 likelihood of failure to feed(as a result of the magazine).

In an operational sense, it's good to rotate magazines every few missions anyway so that you can disassemble them and fully clean them.

Sorry for getting so off-topic.

I disagree. Relying on mags that have been loaded for months and years is a good way to the grave. No one was getting issued new mags when we arrived. Even the new ones with yellow followers were turning to junk when they showed up and were left in ammo cans for the oh shit moment. You change out and clean your mags as part of weapons maintenance. Your getting way into the weeds with materials and friction. Simple answer-mag rotation. My guys might of cared but I just had the NCOs change them out. Mags that were shit were crushed. That's the only way you can really check them is by rotating them. Assuming they will work after being stored for so long is a fail
 
I disagree. Relying on mags that have been loaded for months and years is a good way to the grave. No one was getting issued new mags when we arrived. Even the new ones with yellow followers were turning to junk when they showed up and were left in ammo cans for the oh shit moment. You change out and clean your mags as part of weapons maintenance. Your getting way into the weeds with materials and friction. Simple answer-mag rotation. My guys might of cared but I just had the NCOs change them out. Mags that were shit were crushed. That's the only way you can really check them is by rotating them. Assuming they will work after being stored for so long is a fail

I think you missed this line:
"In an operational sense, it's good to rotate magazines every few missions anyway so that you can disassemble them and fully clean them."

And the friction aspect was related to magazines in current use, not in regards to stored magazines.

Ultimately, when it comes to physics and mechanical engineering, it's good to get "into the weeds". If you don't, that's how folklore gets started. Like, did you know that when a .50 cal bullet passes within a foot of someone, it'll rip their arm off!? You know, that kind of folklore.

If you have some quantifiable evidence that storing magazines loaded for a couple months caused the springs to wear out, then I'll listen. But this sounds like Army tall tales. These magazines that started malfunctioning after sitting for a while, I'm guessing they were in a deployed environment, yes? If that's the case, then them failing was most likely due to getting dirty and gritty. Like we both have said, in an operational environment, periodic cleaning is necessary.
 
I think you missed this line:
"In an operational sense, it's good to rotate magazines every few missions anyway so that you can disassemble them and fully clean them."

And the friction aspect was related to magazines in current use, not in regards to stored magazines.

Ultimately, when it comes to physics and mechanical engineering, it's good to get "into the weeds". If you don't, that's how folklore gets started. Like, did you know that when a .50 cal bullet passes within a foot of someone, it'll rip their arm off!? You know, that kind of folklore.

If you have some quantifiable evidence that storing magazines loaded for a couple months caused the springs to wear out, then I'll listen. But this sounds like Army tall tales. These magazines that started malfunctioning after sitting for a while, I'm guessing they were in a deployed environment, yes? If that's the case, then them failing was most likely due to getting dirty and gritty. Like we both have said, in an operational environment, periodic cleaning is necessary.

It's up to you if you want to listen or not. It's your life. As for me I am very aware of mechanics and physics. But my soldiers are not test subjects. Perhaps sitting at home, mags are fine. Again do what you want. I've spent more than enough time around weapons to know what happens. Time and time again, weapons failures due to bad springs in mags. how did they go bad-just sitting there empty- nope. sitting there fully loaded until someone needed it. Then spring and follower issues. It's constant. You might get lucky and be ok. But for me I am not taking chances.

And to be honest there is a realization by the common grunt that in fact army mags are shit. Hence the popularity or Troy mags and a study by the army itself on weapons failure. Hence the issuance of mags with yellow followers new springs and so on.

I don't have arguments like this. The army is not a democracy. That's another tall tale. Perhaps you should look at the m4 reliability study that was done. As for the m9's, well same goes for them. For you to say magazine springs develop no memory after being fully loaded for extended periods of time is suspect. Take the chance if you want.
 
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It's up to you if you want to listen or not. It's your life. As for me I am very aware of mechanics and physics. But my soldiers are not test subjects. Perhaps sitting at home, mags are fine. Again do what you want. I've spent more than enough time around weapons to know what happens. And to be honest there is a realization by the common grunt that in fact army mags are shit. Hence the popularity or Troy mags and a study by the army itself on weapons failure. Hence the issuance of mags with yellow followers new springs and so on.

I'm all for listening, but you need to provide some actual proof. You say you've seen "hundreds of mags that were crap because they were loaded for long periods of time". Well, what are the details of this? What types of magazines? Were the feed lips measured or inspected? Were these 5.56 magazines loaded to 30 rounds? What types of "jams" were happening because of these magazines? After these malfunctions, if the feed lips were verified to be good, were the magazines disassembled, cleaned, and tried again? If not, how can you be sure they weren't just dirty? By the way, the Army has a go/no-go gauge to measure M4 magazine feed lips. I recommend setting up a schedule to have your Soldiers' magazines checked with that gauge. If you're still in and your arms room doesn't have the gauge, have supply order one. The NSN is 5120-01-574-0036. And if the black coating wears off, order a new gauge.


Yes, Army magazines are garbage. No argument here. Regarding the TAN follower magazines, they were not issued because of springs fatiguing while compressed for extended periods. The tan follower magazines upgrades are as follows:
-Anti-tilt follower
-Wider spring to make the upward force more even across the follower
-More corrosion resistant spring

As you can see, none of this was done to rectify any perceived problem with keeping a magazine loaded.


I don't have arguments like this. The army is not a democracy. That's another tall tale.

What are you even getting at? You don't have arguments like this? Cool, good for you.

Regarding the Army's general investigation into weapon system reliability: Yes, the Army is going to try and make its weapon systems more reliable. You kind of drift off of any sort of point.

But this is ALL MOOT for your situation, because I've said multiple times now that magazines should be regularly disassembled and cleaned in an operational environment.
 
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Hope they work for ya when you need them. I wouldn't trust them especially with someone drawing a bead on me. I always rotated my mags. Always. saw way too many mags that had springs that were junk after being loaded for so long. I was not gonna be screwing with crappy mags on patrol. Almost all of the weapon jams are caused by shitty mags. So why would I increase my chances of a jam when I needed the weapon to work. Need mags loaded-swap them out regularly. I don't care what people say about this. Seen hundreds of mags that were crap because they were loaded for long periods of time. I value my life too much to add another variabable into my weapon working when I need it

Springs are mechanical and will breakdown especially if loaded over years and years.

1) My mags still work.

2) Rotating magazines increases wear, it doesn't decrease wear. When you rotate magazines, you are loading and unloading them. That is how springs wear out, by cycling them.

3) You are increasing the chances of a jam, not decreasing them.
 
Well, I know the entire NES thing about loaded mags are ok has been around for a while.

But I just unloaded ~10 AR mags that were loaded for about 4 years. The mags were destroyed. Were they USGI? I don't know. They were old generic mags. Those mags couldnt handle the compression. The springs were destroyed.

As for M9 mags, any sort of dust in the mag (as in, normal everyday dust) will cause them to bind and jam. At least the ones I had. Did the fact that they were loaded for 6 months at a time factor in? probably not.
 
As for M9 mags, any sort of dust in the mag (as in, normal everyday dust) will cause them to bind and jam. At least the ones I had. Did the fact that they were loaded for 6 months at a time factor in? probably not.

The supplier for USGI M9 mags was Checkmate Industries. The US mil requested they build mags with a rough phosphate finish in the interior of the mag body (unlike a smooth finish like every other mag in the world), in order to help with corrosion prevention. Obviously, they realized that once you got into a desert environment with them, the dust and sand would stick to the interior body and bind up the follower like glue.

Checkmate was the supplier for M9 mags through the 90s and early 2000s. When we first went to Afghanistan and Iraq, almost the entire population of M9 mags in the supply chain were these shitty Checkmate ones, and were the #1 root cause of failures out in the field.

By 2006 or so, Checkmate lost the contract and it went to Airtronic Services, Inc. The Airtronic mags are better than Checkmate, but still not as good as OEM (gee, who would've thought?).
 
Well, I know the entire NES thing about loaded mags are ok has been around for a while.

But I just unloaded ~10 AR mags that were loaded for about 4 years. The mags were destroyed. Were they USGI? I don't know. They were old generic mags. Those mags couldnt handle the compression. The springs were destroyed.

As for M9 mags, any sort of dust in the mag (as in, normal everyday dust) will cause them to bind and jam. At least the ones I had. Did the fact that they were loaded for 6 months at a time factor in? probably not.

Exactly.Now add in people trying to kill you and you get my point.
 
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