Un-Concealed Carry

[SKS Ray]

Driving back home from Zero Hour last night it was around 7:00, still plenty light out and traffic on 24 south was moving freely but still kinda congested. Thats when I saw a motorcycle riding between both lanes of traffic go by my friend and I and we both noticed the Glock the rider was sporting on his right side plain as day. Granted his jacket was up from the wind and in normal conditions you wouldn't be able to see a holstered pistol worn on the side towards the back if the person carrying was wearing a jacket. Myself i'm always careful not to let a shirt ride up when I carry even though I use an in the pants holster. Ya never know when someone will catch a glimpse of the gun you're carrying and freak out. Plus if i'm not mistaken, its the law that you have to keep it completely concealed.
Watching that guy though buzz down the highway, I could only imagine what a state trooper would think if he saw it let alone the people driving alongside him as he went by.
Anyone else here ever see someone forgetting about the whole concealment thing?

 

[Coyote33]

...Plus if i'm not mistaken, its the law that you have to keep it completely concealed. ...

You are mistaken.

 

[Lugnut]

You are mistaken.

???? Explain please.

 

[KMaurer]

???? Explain please.

Quite simple. There is absolutely nothing in Massachusetts law that requires one to carry concealed rather than openly. (That's not the same everywhere; Utah for example requires concealment.) An unrestricted LTC-A is required to carry concealed, but does not require it. That having been said, it's strongly recommended that when carrying you keep it concealed, less some paranoid citizen or overzealous and/or ill-informed officer ruin your day. After all, who wants to spend several new guns worth of cash in attorney's fees and court costs attempting to get their license reinstated?

Ken

 

[Lugnut]

Well now I'm really confused. Although I can't find laws that state it's required to conceal (vs open carry) I know I've heard fairly recently about a guy that lost his license because his windbreaker blew up and his firearm was exposed. So maybe it's not a "law" but it might as well be in this crummy state.

 

[M1911]

Simple. Remember that in MA you have an LTC at the pleasure of the chief. The chief can pull it at any time for "suitability" reasons. If the you are carrying unconcealed and the chief hears about it, the chief may decide that you are not "suitable" to have an LTC and revoke it.

 

[Scrivener]

Quite simple. There is absolutely nothing in Massachusetts law that requires one to carry concealed rather than openly. (That's not the same everywhere; Utah for example requires concealment.) An unrestricted LTC-A is required to carry concealed, but does not require it. That having been said, it's strongly recommended that when carrying you keep it concealed, less some paranoid citizen or overzealous and/or ill-informed officer ruin your day. After all, who wants to spend several new guns worth of cash in attorney's fees and court costs attempting to get their license reinstated?

Correct. Unless you are on your own farm or in your own store (most likely a pawn shop, liquor or jewelry store), open carry is an invitation to loss of license and, quite possibly, even arrest. You'll scare the sheep.

 

[SKS Ray]

So in this case its more rule of thumb than law I take it. I was going by what I was told when I took my safety course for my LTC. The officer told me that here in New Bedford its best to always keep it concealed and mentioned a guy who lost his license because of letting his jacket expose a pistol he was carrying on his side while putting something in his car in a crowded parking lot. Can't remember the whole story but it was something along the lines of someone seeing it and notifying a police officer who was there, etc. etc. you can guess the rest.
Kinda like eating those leftovers in the fridge that have been there a little longer than you'd like, sometimes you don't wanna take a chance.

 

[Emoto]

Right. There's no law against it, but if you "disturb the peace" etc., you will not be happy. Nevermind that an act that is legal shouldn't get you into trouble...

 

[Lugnut]

This is certainly one I'd like to see someone fight... like the guy that had his license revoked!!! How the hell can simply exposing it make you "unsuitable'?? This state is completely F&^%*d!!

 

[M1911]

This is certainly one I'd like to see someone fight... like the guy that had his license revoked!!! How the hell can simply exposing it make you "unsuitable'??

IANAL, but it is my understanding that the "suitability" issue has been tested in court a number of times. Don't hold your breath on it changing.

 

[rapture]

My next door neighbor who is a police officer in the city of Salem told me that open carry could be considered "brandishing a firearm" and therefore was illeagle. Any truth to that? On a side note, if I'm in a crowd of people, I wouldn't want to carry unconcealed because whats to stop someone from coming up behind me and try to grab my sidearm? You'd have to constantly walk around with one hand on your pistol! This isn't the wild west!

 

[matt]

You'll scare the sheep.

 

[TY43215]

My next door neighbor who is a police officer in the city of Salem told me that open carry could be considered "brandishing a firearm" and therefore was illeagle. Any truth to that?

I will let one of the Attorneys answer that part but I have never found the term in a section of a Ma General law.

On a side note, if I'm in a crowd of people, I wouldn't want to carry unconcealed because whats to stop someone from coming up behind me and try to grab my sidearm? (SNIP)

And if it is concealed, what will stop someone from coming up behind you and trying to grab your sidearm??

It is called awareness and hand gun retention. In order to be carrying, you need to have awareness of your surroundings and be able to prevent someone who is determined to relieve you of your firearm from doing so.

If you have any concerns about someone taking it away from you, you need to go get some retention training.

Believe me on this one thing. If I see you are carrying and I want to take it from you, you can be sure I will probably get it and I am not trained in any martial arts. Your only savior is awareness.



Regards,

 

[KMaurer]

If you don't have any concerns about someone taking your gun away from you, you need either a reality check or an attitude adjustment. Just taking a retention course won't do you any more good than buying a gun and sticking it in your nightstand.

Ken

 

[rapture]

And if it is concealed, what will stop someone from coming up behind you and trying to grab your sidearm??

If your sidearm is well concealed, noone would even know you had it. They can't grab for something that they don't know even exists.

 

[TY43215]

If your sidearm is well concealed, noone would even know you had it. They can't grab for something that they don't know even exists.

There is a fine line between accessible and "well concealed". If you have it concealed so well you can not get to it you may be safe from a grab. Again, awareness is the most important tool. (Which I think is what ken was saying too???)

 

[Weerd Beard]

In portland about 15 years ago a man in Portland Maine was with his family at a public festival.

Maine is an open carry state (the only state gun-permit you need is for CCW, no licence needed to buy or posess...just the NICS). Well Cheif Chitwood (Easy Substitution for my nickname for him) decided he was a danger to society so he confiscated the gun.

Now this was totally illigal, but no charges were filed, the police just told him to come pick up his gun the next day. He did, wairing another gun.

Now in the end the Maine citizen won that little open carry battle. But in Maine there is nothing between you and the US Constitution concerning your right to keep and bare.

Now transpose this to Mass, where your COP (your Chitwood) has the right to take away your right at his discression (or better yet, downgrade you to an FID for no reason given at all).

Just because the you have the right doesn't mean you aren't going to go down for it.

-Weer'd Beard

 

[Coyote33]

This is certainly one I'd like to see someone fight... like the guy that had his license revoked!!! How the hell can simply exposing it make you "unsuitable'?? This state is completely F&^%*d!!

Didn't it USED TO BE that you had to NOT CARRY CONCEALED? I seem to remember that from when I was a kid. I recall that you had to have at least some part of the gun showing at all times, unless you had a "concealed carry" or "personal protection" permit, which was very hard to get and looked upon as a special status. This would be in the late 60's or so. Or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Coyote,

I think folks here are "mixing states".

I believe that the case of "accidental exposure" that led to your response was the guy with a couple boxes of hot pizza in hand, wind blew open his jacket, Dedham PO spotted it and LTC revoked. He went to court and lost, appealed, etc. Info is here on NES about it and the subject even joined, posted once or twice and disappeared.

 

[Nashmack]

One more reason I love NH. I open carry when I do the Globe routes in Manchester. I've never had a problem with anyone being within 10 feet of my vehicle once they spot my sidearm.

 

[drgrant]

This is certainly one I'd like to see someone fight... like the guy that had his license revoked!!! How the hell can simply exposing it make you "unsuitable'?? This state is completely F&^%*d!!

Welcome to MA. As far as LTCs go, it's basically "one strike and your
out" depending on who the issuing authority is for your permit. This
is by far the WORST problem in MA, aside from issuance issues.....

-Lose, or have a gun stolen from you = possible permit loss
-Concealment gets compromised = possible permit loss

One thing I've never been able to find out- has anyone ever encountered an
IA that was -reasonable- about this sort of thing? All you ever hear are
the horror stories, you never hear of when a PD "does the right thing". Of
course it could really be a big crapshoot.... depending on the city/town,
and the "incident" in question, things may be a bit different. I'd imagine
the most reasonable response you'd get in MA is that they'd tell you to
keep your gun concealed, and leave it at that. If you're not lucky, you
could get yanked....

-Mike

 

[Scrivener]

Now transpose this to Mass, where your COP (your Chitwood) has the right to take away your right at his discression [sic] (or better yet, downgrade you to an FID for no reason given at all).

INCORRECT. The LTC will be suspended (unlikely) or revoked and by a letter specifying why. It will NOT be "downgraded) to a different license altogether.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Chief Ron Glidden has told me (and other seminar attendees) that they get frequent "man with a gun" calls at the Lee (MA) Outlet Shops. When they respond, if the person checks out (LTC-A/ALP), complies with their request to conceal it better, and does NOT act belligerent, they send him on his way with a verbal warning. If the person acts belligerent or is a repeat offender, Ron will contact the issuing Licensing Authority and suggest that said person "may not be a suitable person". Said Licensing Authority will usually revoke the LTC for suitability at that point and the person (at least in MA) is SOL!

 

[Pilgrim]

Didn't it USED TO BE that you had to NOT CARRY CONCEALED? I seem to remember that from when I was a kid. I recall that you had to have at least some part of the gun showing at all times, unless you had a "concealed carry" or "personal protection" permit, which was very hard to get and looked upon as a special status. This would be in the late 60's or so. Or am I remembering wrong?

Yup that's the way I remember it too in the 50-60's.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Pilgrim, no this one happened ~4 years ago and was in litigation that long. Some of the attorneys here on NES were defending the guy (name was Joe <something>), who was a single guy who collected guns (well, he used to!).

 

[Coyote33]

Coyote,

I think folks here are "mixing states".

I believe that the case of "accidental exposure" that led to your response was the guy with a couple boxes of hot pizza in hand, wind blew open his jacket, Dedham PO spotted it and LTC revoked. He went to court and lost, appealed, etc. Info is here on NES about it and the subject even joined, posted once or twice and disappeared.

The state I was referring to is Massachusetts.

 

[Pilgrim]

Pilgrim, no this one happened ~4 years ago and was in litigation that long. Some of the attorneys here on NES were defending the guy (name was Joe <something>), who was a single guy who collected guns (well, he used to!).

Sorry I quoted the wrong post. I fixed it above.

 

[Coyote33]

Yup that's the way I remember it too in the 50-60's.

Of course, I remember going into "The Fair" (now Walmart) to pick up ammo, and the gun had better be showing, or they will think you are trying to hide something or hold them up or something. Just tuck the jacket in behind the grip and it was OK or carry in the front of your pants or something like that. That was also when it was illegal (I think) to leave a gun in your car. Again, this is all from my childhood memory, which seems like a dream...

 

[MARINE96]

What it all comes down to is the sheep in this and many states are paranoid about everything and anything concering a gun.if the can take away your right to own firearms,they will find a way. the sheeps see it as no guns=a safer socitey,only if they knew the truth.