USPSA Shooter Shot with Her Holstered Gun - And Never Touched It

[Woodstock]

A second-hand M&P had been modified by the previous owner, who neglected to tell her. The round that struck her lower leg nearly killed her and left her with permanent disabling injuries.
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/...ng-nearly-costs-competitive-shooter-her-life/

 

[92G]

way too much missing information to come to any conclusions.

the gun has a firing pin block. unless the firing pin block and trigger safeties were removed, this isn't even remotely possible. and if the previous owner was stupid enough to make such modifications, then she must have been stupid enough to not even examine the gun!

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A second-hand M&P had been modified by the previous owner, who neglected to tell her. The round that struck her lower leg nearly killed her and left her with permanent disabling injuries.
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/...ng-nearly-costs-competitive-shooter-her-life/

this is 100% speculation and, even if true, probably irrelevant.

 

[Stevireno]

That is one big hole...

Sent from my XT1635-02 using Tapatalk

 

[DW357]

She is alive today because a student in that class was equipped with a tourniquet. If you have a firearm on you, you should have a tourniquet on you. Period.

Or keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot....

 

[bill o]

She is alive today because a student in that class was equipped with a tourniquet. If you have a firearm on you, you should have a tourniquet on you. Period.

Or keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot....

She says the gun was still holstered when it fired, but who knows what really happened.

 

[Chet0729]

It just went off.
Are we sure it wasn't a Glock.
At least this one wasn't cleaning it, she blamed someone else instead.

 

[glockerblogger]

way too much missing information to come to any conclusions.

the gun has a firing pin block. unless the firing pin block and trigger safeties were removed, this isn't even remotely possible. and if the previous owner was stupid enough to make such modifications, then she must have been stupid enough to not even examine the gun!

- - - Updated - - -



this is 100% speculation and, even if true, probably irrelevant.

Ok so question still remains - even with firing pin block and trigger safeties removed - what can cause the round to be fired?? Has to be an impact on the trigger or a much bigger impact on the gun right??

 

[robjax]

As others have said not enough information. And if the gun was modified by the previous owner...how do you know if the previous owner never said anything? How do we know she didn't modify the gun? How do we know she didn't accidentally pull the trigger? How do we know that she isn't making up this story to cover her own butt?


Even so, and without all these questions answered...

I sense more restrictive gun laws as they relate to home gunsmithing in 3....2....

 

[babygorilla]

Ok so question still remains - even with firing pin block and trigger safeties removed - what can cause the round to be fired?? Has to be an impact on the trigger or a much bigger impact on the gun right??

Pretty much. Something either stuck the gun REALLY HARD, or something snagged the trigger. Partly why I'm risk adverse to leather holsters, kydex doesn't lose it's shape or soften....A while back a guy shot him self in the ass cheek with a floppy leather holster. But that's a personal preference.

 

[wiryone1]

She is alive today because a student in that class was equipped with a tourniquet. If you have a firearm on you, you should have a tourniquet on you. Period.

Or keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot....

I am slowly being convinced I should be carrying a tourniquet. Daniel Shaw is one firearm trainer that is big advocate. I think I need some education on the use of one before I do. A lot of people who have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan are changing ideas about tourniquet use.

 

[robjax]

I am slowly being convinced I should be carrying a tourniquet. Daniel Shaw is one firearm trainer that is big advocate. I think I need some education on the use of one before I do. A lot of people who have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan are changing ideas about tourniquet use.

The Red Cross used to give life saving classes. Not sure if they still do. You could check with one near you.

 

[45collector]

I don't buy it, that the gun went off while in the holster, without user touching it. Stranger things have happened though I guess.
Glad she will live.

 

[slugworth]

I don't buy it, that the gun went off while in the holster, without user touching it. Stranger things have happened though I guess.
Glad she will live.

Right!!

So i quess she will lose all her firearms and such right? That's what would happen here in MA. even if it was an "accendent"

 

[Gator9329]

I am slowly being convinced I should be carrying a tourniquet. Daniel Shaw is one firearm trainer that is big advocate. I think I need some education on the use of one before I do. A lot of people who have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan are changing ideas about tourniquet use.

This

 

[alohadoug]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24552-Cameon-Eisenzimmer-Gun-Modifications-Accident

Here's a link to the discussion on another forum. It includes the video with the victim. (I don't know if the original link does or not, site is blocked at work.) In the discussion there, someone says that after the gun was torn down and compared to an original, it appears

The gun was taken apart and compared to another one. It turned out that someone had carved on the sear to the extent that it no longer supported the internal safety which resulted in the gun discharging in her holster.

Buyer beware.

 

[xtry51]

All her fault either way. If you are going to buy a gun you should certainly inspect it. Even if you didn't field strip it or know what you were looking at, dry firing a M&P with the sear removed that much would present itself immediately as questionable.

 

[robjax]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?24552-Cameon-Eisenzimmer-Gun-Modifications-Accident

Here's a link to the discussion on another forum. It includes the video with the victim. (I don't know if the original link does or not, site is blocked at work.) In the discussion there, someone says that after the gun was torn down and compared to an original, it appears

Buyer beware.

Here is your video....

WARNING!!!!! Graphic photos in the video of her injury.

[video=youtube_share;KPxQsP7_ZQw]http://youtu.be/KPxQsP7_ZQw[/video]



and this is what another individual from that other site posted. Nothing has been proven but this certainly sounds plausible...although in the video of her shooting I cannot see any loose clothing near the holster...so who knows...however there is a flap on the holster probably for securing the firearm...perhaps that got caught in the trigger guard and was un-noticed.


"First let me say that the general topic of this thread is right on. Beware of guns that have seen BUBA's kitchen table. It is something everyone should think about when buying a used gun or doing their own fire control modifications.

That said:

I believe there is more to this story than the gun being modified. None of the modifications shown in the video would have deactivated the striker block. Even if the striker prematurely slipped off the sear the striker block should have stopped this from happening. I am familiar with Burwel's power point on modifying the M&P fire control group for competition and even taking excess off the striker block would not have allowed the striker to come in contact with the primer without the trigger being depressed. Other than fully removing the striker block I can't think of a modification that a kitchen table gunsmith could make that would cause the striker block not being engaged without depressing the trigger.

I think it is more likely clothing became introduced into the trigger guard while holstering the gun without the shooter or SO noticing. When the shooter started to move positions her movement caused the clothing to depress the trigger. This is something I have cautioned about before and we must be aware of and recognize before another accident happens.

My thoughts do not lessen the tragedy that happened to this gun owner or the dangers of improperly modified weapons."

 

[bigblue]

Video shows everything but the actual accident? Or am I totally missing it?

Who buys a gun used and doesn't tear it apart? Buyer beware my ass, have some responsibility for the gun you own. How do we know she didn't do the dremel work herself?

 

[thormx538]

I've never torn an M&P apart to see how it works, but with my understanding of Glocks and the entire point of striker fired guns (ie, the trigger pull is what actually pulls the striker back against spring tension) I just don't understand how a striker fired gun could fire without pulling the trigger.

 

[xtry51]

That video only reinforces my perception that this woman is a moron.

The part pictured is NOT modified enough to cause the problem she is claiming happened. I have done trigger jobs on M&Ps including one I put about 16k rounds through. Milling the sear to a sharp edge is the standard practice. The rounded edge is what makes the standard trigger break like shit.

None of what is shown in that video substantiates her claim that the gun was modified enough to cause a discharge. Excessively removing material from that sear or altering the angle would typically result in the gun going burst or FA during use. That sear is nowhere near short enough to make that happen. You would need to remove 3/32" or more. You can see clearly that sear is near stock length still.

My conclusion is this woman is a liar.

 

[bigblue]

I've never torn an M&P apart to see how it works, but with my understanding of Glocks and the entire point of striker fired guns (ie, the trigger pull is what actually pulls the striker back against spring tension) I just don't understand how a striker fired gun could fire without pulling the trigger.

This is what the other thread ACTUALLY says: That regardless of modification, the trigger still needs to be pulled somehow by clothing or a foreign object. She also mentions "other modifications" so who knows what she actually did to it.


The video above is useless as it doesn't show the incident even for a second.

 

[bigblue]

20,000 views on the video and 47 comments, she must edit the crap out of those comments. Blame is in the mirror girl, stop trying to blame the seller or the gun and own up to your mistake.

 

[xtry51]

For those that do not know about it, here is what is considered the go to doc for doing a M&P trigger job:

http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

Nothing in her video mentions how the firing pin block safety was overcome either.

 

[xtry51]

20,000 views on the video and 47 comments, she must edit the crap out of those comments. Blame is in the mirror girl, stop trying to blame the seller or the gun and own up to your mistake.

More so, the comments they did keep are clearly by idiots. One is claiming negative angle on the sear, which you can clearly see is not true in the picture. Another claims the trigger bar was altered to overcome the FP block. I don't think it is possible to modify the trigger bar enough to do that AND make the gun still fire by contacting the sear. Either way you can tell the sear is barely altered at all and certainly not enough to undermine contact with firing pin. Likely it was just hand polished.

I'm 100% you would need to pull the trigger with at least 5lbs of force to make that gun fire if the sear in the picture is the sear that was in the gun.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I wonder if an attorney worked with her on that video. The way she carefully lays out the case for liability - discussing the trigger job; asserting a lack of disclosure; and then a lecture about how a trigger job endangers the shooter and everyone nearby would suggest such. Even the detail about "not a thorough nook and crannie cleaning but a onceover" sounds like an argument to the jury explaining why she did not notice the gunsmithing. She also make sure to mention she is "by no means a firearms expert" to counter any argument she should have noticed the work. The entire soliloquy sounds like a closing argument to a jury.

This woman is a C/D class shooter who does a lot of shooting at ND clubs.

Yikes - Compartment syndrome. Bad juju there.

Thinking on tourniquets has changed over the years. When I was a kid, first aid training was "tourniquet only when the limb is severed". In actuality, the time before ischemic damage is measured in hours, not minutes. If you have a sharpie handy, it's good form to write the time of application on the patient (not sure if convention is forehead or near the tourniquet). Bill Carlo (Weston PD detective) did a great class on the big three tools for gunshot wounds - tourniquet; Israeli bandage; and clotting gauze. (Don't forget to keep gloves in you bag to wear when using these tools).

 

[robjax]

For those that do not know about it, here is what is considered the go to doc for doing a M&P trigger job:

http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf

Nothing in her video mentions how the firing pin block safety was overcome either.

So I looked at your posted presentation on how to modify the sear. Then I looked at her video. I compared 7:43 in the video to slide 23 of 46 in your posted presentation. I tried to compare the two. I am by no means a gunsmith in any sense of the word. But slide 23 of 46 in your posted presentation states the following:

"Stock sear has hump onstriker engagement areathat cams striker backwhen pulling trigger.• Polishing this area will cutdown weight.• Cutting the hump downwill also improve theweight.• Do not cut to a negativeangle."

Now compare the sear from her gun to the unmodified sear in 7:43 of the video....

Could that area have been cut to a negative angle? And why should it not be cut to a negative angle?

I'm not being a wise a$$...I'm just looking at and comparing what is posted. Again, I have zero gunsmithing skills.

 

[92G]

the negative angle on the stock sear is designed so that pressure from the striker helps keep the sear in the upward position, i.e. closed. it's the same phenomenon with a revolver. if that angle is removed or rounded off, pressure from the striker alone can cause the sear to disengage. so called "hammer push off".

however, even if the sear fails, the gun still has a striker block. so unless the striker block also failed (unlikely) or was flat out removed, it simply makes no sense for the gun to just go bang.

 

[bigblue]

So about that firing pin block...

 

[robjax]

the negative angle on the stock sear is designed so that pressure from the striker helps keep the sear in the upward position, i.e. closed. it's the same phenomenon with a revolver. if that angle is removed or rounded off, pressure from the striker alone can cause the sear to disengage. so called "hammer push off".

however, even if the sear fails, the gun still has a striker block. so unless the striker block also failed (unlikely) or was flat out removed, it simply makes no sense for the gun to just go bang.

So it is possible if this angle was negative the hammer could fall without the trigger being pulled?

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/how-to-test-for-push-off-when-buying-a-used-s-w.21054/



[FONT=&quot]"Anyways, as it turns out, the one smith that I don't test for happened to have push off. Push off is a condition where when the hammer is locked back (single action), the negative engagement of the hammer and trigger allows the hammer to fall if pressed, gun is dropped, ect. This is an extremely unsafe condition, and if you have a S&W with this problem, do not use it (as in firing live ammo) until it is repaired."[/FONT]

 

[bigblue]

So it is possible if this angle was negative the hammer could fall without the trigger being pulled?

https://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/how-to-test-for-push-off-when-buying-a-used-s-w.21054/



[FONT=&amp]"Anyways, as it turns out, the one smith that I don't test for happened to have push off. Push off is a condition where when the hammer is locked back (single action), the negative engagement of the hammer and trigger allows the hammer to fall if pressed, gun is dropped, ect. This is an extremely unsafe condition, and if you have a S&W with this problem, do not use it (as in firing live ammo) until it is repaired."[/FONT]

How does your scenario disable the firing pin block?