Very high accuracy .22 handguns incl Free Pistols

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One of the guns wanted ads led to the need for comments about very high accuracy .22 handguns including free pistols. Here is a slightly modified posting of one of the comments, in case anyone is interested. If not, I can delete this later.

If you want very high accuracy, there is very little difference in accuracy out to 50 meters between the free pistols, and the best of the semi-autos like the 208 and AW 93, and practically none compared to the SAKO. Beyond 50 M, the free pistols are better due to the long barrels and ability to use HV ammunition.

Among the free pistols, the Steyr is the best for accuracy and probably for durablity, but is expensive ($2300-2800) and the high sights require a modified shooting technique. It also can not be used in the regulated shilouette competitions due to the design.

The Pfuff was a specific design for small hands, is almost as accurate as the Steyr, and very durable. Generally around $1200. Some are 12" barrels, some 10, occasionally 8"

The Hammerli 160 is very good, lighter than the others, and is very popular. Around $2000.

The Hammerli 150 is very accurate, heavier, and uses a tapered barrel for vibration suppression. This is a very good design, also very accurate. About $1200-1600 depending on specific gun.

The Hammerli 120 uses the same barrel ldesign as the 150 but has a weaver dovetail standard, and is the only FP that uses a Colt 1911 or military grip angle. It also can accept a shoulder stock, with appropriate ATF permits. The trigger is not as refined as on the 150-160 or other guns, but has a wide range of adjustment, is simple, and very good. The barrel position is quite high due to the grip and use of a luger finger lockup, rather than a falling or rotating block, reducing accuracy in actual use compared to the other guns. Price varies, but usually is in the $600-800 range.

Any of these guns however is about as accurate as the average Anschutz target rifle, with the Steyr better than most of them. Specifically 0.15 MOA for the Steyr, about .2 to .25 for the others, with the Pfuff often below 0.2 MOA.

One basic item in accuracy with the Steyr is having the barrel at the level of the index finger. The grips must be adjusted to provide this, for the gun to be accurate in actual luse.

Some like the TOZ35. I don't recommend those due to the high rate of parts failure and wear, and the basic accuracy is less than the Hammerli, Steyr, and Pfuff guns. The 35M is very slightly lower quality. However, the prices for either may merit considering these, as they can be quite low in price and are very good guns, when they work. A NIB TOZ usually needs to be refined and adjusted before it can be used with accuracy, as well. Many, however, recommend them very highly and view the TOZ-35 or 35-M as the ideal olympic and competition pistol.

Some like the new Morini. The test targets however always are poor compared to the guns above. The Morini are favored in FP competition now, but whether that is advertising rather than quality has been a matter of discussion.

If you stumble across one, the old Arminius Model 2 free pistols also were excellent and very easy to use due to the light weight. However only a few were made (I think 4) and they don't appear frequently.

In looking at the test targets, the Steyr, Pfuff, Morini, and TOZ test data compare readily to one another. The Hammerli test targets do not, because they are done with a massive barrel clamp that causes major changes in the shooting characteristics of the gun, and greatly increases the test target accuracy.

As to use of these guns, it varies. Some use them strictly for personal target shooting, some for competition, some for hunting. In Europe especially, the Hammerli, Steyr, and Pfuff free pistols were used as compact rifles to 100M in intelligence work. Due to the shorter barrels, the high accuracy semi-autos like the Hammerli 208, Walther GSP, and Feinwerkbau AW93 generally are useful only to 50M distance with high accuracy. The GSP with a 10" barrel is the exception.

Please note, many of these pistols are classified as assault weapons in towns or states with specific bans on assault weapons guns. Among the high accuracy semi-auto handguns, generally only the Walther GSP and OSP have been classified as assault weapons, as well as the newer Pardini and Morini developments from that gun.
 
If you want very high accuracy, there is very little difference in accuracy out to 50 meters between the free pistols, and the best of the semi-autos like the 208 and AW 93, and practically none compared to the SAKO. Beyond 50 M, the free pistols are better due to the long barrels and ability to use HV ammunition.
Why would anyone use supersonic .22 for any serious target work? The ballistic coefficient of the bullet is higher at subsonic velocities, wind drift is less, and when the round transitions from supersonic to subsonic, accuracy goes down.
White Feather
 
In general, the optimal .22lr round is subsonic, varying from 600 fps to 1050 maximum, depending on the gun and distance. The exception is with the free pistols, particularly at 100-150 Meters, particularly if the intent is not target shooting, but "sniper" use in intelligence work. With MV over 1500fps, the transiation to subsonic can be far enough away to still be useful.

However, as noted in the comment, that super-subsonic transition point really changes accuracy tremendously, and is a huge factor with essentially any bullet if it undergoes that transition before it reaches the target. The "shift" in bullet path that occurs is so unpredictable (random or chaotic in the mathematical sense) that there is no good way to compensate for it.

In addition to the factors cited by White Feather, the muzzle blast on exiting is a big factor in destabilizing the bullet. The HV ammunition generally increases this effect, with no real gain in MV. With a 10" or 12" barrel length, the MV increase is significant. The Steyr uses a completely symmetric muzzle brakes to reduce or negate that blast effect. There are aftermarket brakes for the other guns that accomplish the same thing. The key factor is that the brake exhaust must be symmetric. The older .22lr muzzle brakes used on the S&W41 or Hammerli 206, as examples, do not accomplish this and actually worsen accuracy.

The other effect is vibration patterns. In an occasional gun, the vibration pattern set up seems to increase accuracy. The Steyr can be tuned with the above-barrel weights to optimize the vibration pattern, and some of the Pfuff guns have this option, as well as the 160 Special. Most other free pistols do not. Vibration pattern in this instance is both the barrel vibration, and that of the gun overall. A few free pistol shooters have found the accuracy for their particular gun to be improved with HV ammunition. Generally this has been with a 10" barrel. Their thought was that it was the higher velocity per se, but my suspicion or conclusion, is that it is due to effects on gun vibration patterns.
 
Handguns

And I should add, the HV ammunition should not be used in the semi-auto handguns unless additional modifications are made. The GSP with the 10" barrel is about the only one where this might be useful, for the same reason as in the FPs. The old High Standards with 10" barrels are very difficult to modify to tolerate the HV ammunition, and probably should never be used with this.
 
I'm sorry but you are all wet on your accuracy analysis for free pistol vs standard pistol. You need to back your statements with verifiable data and test results. You can start with your name and credentials.
 
What ammo? 1500 fps is pretty fast. Agila super maximum comes close but it has a 30 grain bullet. Probably loses velocity fast. Not sure at what range it is trans-sonic. Brake and supersonic is not quiet. Free pistol is expensive. Why use them? My Contender with 10" match chamber and 7x Burris will go under 1/2 at 50 yards but I would pick my .221fireball xp100 with 10x Burris if I was serious. It will put 5 under 1" at 100 and has put 3 into 3/8 at 200. A friend of mine had a Vostock FP. I couldn't touch the trigger without firing it. Interesting thread.
White Feather
 
On Gun Talk, they chrono'd a bunch of .22LR. One of the standard velocity rounds was actually super sonic.

Sent from my XT897 using Tapatalk
 
FP

free pistol? IN!

The name is from the old Olympic and other competition requirements for the gun design, which was relatively free form for the grip and fore-end, but not low cost, even at the very beginning. I forgot to mention that in the prior comments.

As to source of data, primarily it was accumulated testing and experience outside of, and not including the target shooting world from the 1950s to present with hundreds of these guns (referenced briefly in the comments), and the experience of my associates in Germany who have been manufacturers of high accuracy target guns since the 1920s through now, and users of such from that time through current. One of the problems with competition data is the size of the target, the conditions of shooting, and that one may be dealing with perceptions that are not at the level of statistical significance for the data. The competition targets also were designed in the 1890s, for guns of that period, and not for statistically valid testing of firearms accuracy.

As noted by White Feather, the FP trigger weight usually is very light. It is adjustable on all the designs, and depending on the gun, from 20 gm to 4kg, with most in the 20 or 30 to 500 gm range. The Hammerli 120 goes much higher in pull weight at the upper end, than any other.

The "Vostok" probably was an MC-55 series or TOZ-35.

The light trigger is used for the same reason as target rifles often are set so low.... to avoid moving the gun when the trigger is pulled. There also is a neurologic aspect, that this allows a different part of the nervous system to be used to be used to fire the gun, with much shorter lag time.

The reasons for using FP ammunition, alternatives to it with equally good results, or which ammo or methods achieve the 1700FPS velocity, are best left for another time. Same for the reasons for a true free pistol, rather than a TC or Remington. If the question is the choice of a gun, there also is the question,why .22x rather than 7x49GJW if pure accuracy is what is in question.

Again, any specific differing views or experiences always are of interest and appreciated. If anyone does not wish to utilize my ideas, I have no complaint about that.

As others indicate, for some shooters, other guns like the Contender or Remington are better for their purposes, at usually significantly lower cost.

My experience covers only about 7 decades and perhaps a few dozen types of guns in detail, with most of the actual work in very advanced weapons development rather than simple firearms. No claim at knowing everything or being omniscent, and why I also am benefited by the experience of my associates, which is more extensive for ordinary firearms.

Of course, any contrary experiences, formulas, or theories to mine are appreciated. For example, many find the SAKO impossible to use and adjust properly (especially in .32), find the GSP impossible to shoot accurately, or feel the Hammerli 208 is junk. Others prefer the TOZ or Morini free pistols above all others, or feel the MC-55 series is the sine qua non, or that the Tula MC series semi-autos were the best ever.

Nikita has been my "trade" name for gun sales for some years, and is reasonably well known by those interested in extremely high accuracy guns. It was derived from the semi-fictional character Nikita Wirth, with the disclaimer of no relationship or prior ownership of the guns by Peta Wilson, and no prior use of these weapons by Australian special forces known to have existed.
 
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So in other words, you are taking obsolete hearsay data and making it sound like fact. Many of the firearms you reference were obsolete 20 years ago and or were found to mechanical failures either by design or by function.

Let's take two you spoke of: the Steyr FP , with a very short five inch barrels and centerline bore it s a novel idea, but loading was clumsy, trigger less than consistent. And the sight configuration mo like a sail to ever really catch on. Boris Kokorev (sp?) of the Russian team was convinced by s
Steyr to use one in 1994 , I think in Spain, I was there. He failed to perform and got rid of it for his old TOZ 35. The Sako Triace was another example of a good idea but poor mechanics, yes the barrel s accurate, but the trigger, no so much. It went the way of the Steyr, a novelty at best.

You also sight that the Pardini and the Morini standard pistols are modeled after the Walther. Please explains some of the mechanics which were take from the Walther. Neither have a removable trigger group, the Morini was a tube fed design with an electronic trigger. The Pardini a simple design with a two stage trigger and low barrel axis, frame am from cast aluminum.

On the Ammo front, Federal UM1 or Ultra Match was the highest velocity ammo made for Olympic level shooting, Gold and Silver in 1992 rifle, but the velocity and cost doomed it for many. Eley Tenex, the gold standard for world class shooters runs about 1060-1080 FPS and Fiocchi and Lapua have rounds which scratch 1100 FPS.

The ISSF keeps good records on what arms and ammo are used in world level competition, you might want to review some of their stats. And get back to us.

Also put a link to your web sight for us please, mine is in my signature.
 
I bought a brick of UM1 when it first came out. I was surprised that it was supersonic. It was around $100 at the time. Still have over 400 rounds left. Loved the dimple. I still want to know who loads 1500 fps .22 lr.
White Feather
 
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Many interesting facets

So in other words, you are taking obsolete hearsay data and making it sound like fact. Many of the firearms you reference were obsolete 20 years ago and or were found to mechanical failures either by design or by function.

Let's take two you spoke of: the Steyr FP , with a very short five inch barrels and centerline bore it s a novel idea, but loading was clumsy, trigger less than consistent. And the sight configuration mo like a sail to ever really catch on. Boris Kokorev (sp?) of the Russian team was convinced by s
Steyr to use one in 1994 , I think in Spain, I was there. He failed to perform and got rid of it for his old TOZ 35. The Sako Triace was another example of a good idea but poor mechanics, yes the barrel s accurate, but the trigger, no so much. It went the way of the Steyr, a novelty at best.

You also sight that the Pardini and the Morini standard pistols are modeled after the Walther. Please explains some of the mechanics which were take from the Walther. Neither have a removable trigger group, the Morini was a tube fed design with an electronic trigger. The Pardini a simple design with a two stage trigger and low barrel axis, frame am from cast aluminum.

On the Ammo front, Federal UM1 or Ultra Match was the highest velocity ammo made for Olympic level shooting, Gold and Silver in 1992 rifle, but the velocity and cost doomed it for many. Eley Tenex, the gold standard for world class shooters runs about 1060-1080 FPS and Fiocchi and Lapua have rounds which scratch 1100 FPS.

The ISSF keeps good records on what arms and ammo are used in world level competition, you might want to review some of their stats. And get back to us.

Also put a link to your web sight for us please, mine is in my signature.

The above comments raise some interesting, and some fascinating aspects of high accuracy pistols, that may not be obvious to those who have not used them.

First, I'm not on this discussion group as a gun seller, and an not listing or selling guns via this site. For that reason, no links to my catalog, etc, are being provided. Since I'm not registered as a commercial seller, I thought any signature links also would be inappropriate. The second is one of perspective. For some, guns represent a continuum going back centuries, with little major change, except for quantum singularity weapons. For others, today is completely different from yesterday. I'm not quite sure who is correct, but at this moment, my comments are from the first perspective.

The above comments raise the first of the intresting aspects of high accuracy guns, which overlaps into the SAKO. Most of these guns have wide ranges of adjustment for trigger, sear, travels, and even mainspring force. With the Steyr, that gun in as-issued form always used a 10" barrel, plus muzzle brake extending beyond that. A few FP did use shorter barrels (Pfuff, Hammerli) but 5" was between rare and never, and definitely would require a very different ammunition from any other free pistol. The shortest standard FP I can recall was the Hammerli 120 short barrel, which usually had a 5.75" barrel, either tapered or very heavy cylindrical profile, but others may have reached the 5" point. The trigger on the Steyr is very advanced, using the "vario trigger" for the shoe that later was used on the G&E rifles and some AW93. The trigger mechanism has an extreme range of adjustment option. While the manual provides precise instructions in German (or English), there is no Russian language manual. Failure to follow the instructions precisely, or adjust it as if it were a TOZ 35 or MC 55 trigger would lead to very inconsistent operation or failure. The extraction system also is difficult to reassemble after cleaning, especially if a minimal but special tool is not used. It is very easy to reassemble it in a manner that fails to work properly.

The sights on the gun have a wide range of potential adjustment, including canting. However, for one trained for years on the TOZ35 or MU55 and few other guns, at least 6 months would be required to learn to use the Steyr with equal ability. The Soviet team had problems switching from the MC55 to the TOZ35, which are very similar for sighting. The Steyr, for quick transition, would be a disaster. A fair number of Steyr guns were ruined by "cleaning and adjustment" by gunsmiths, never to be used again.

As a side note, all Steyr Free Pistols were made and final adjusted by the same person, who now is the director of technical services for that company. Spare parts are in good stock, but only in Austria.

With the SAKO, a similar situation pertains. That gun, especially the TriAce (the second, olympic gold medal winner version) has an extreme range of adjustment potentials, beyond that of the Steyr (or SIG P240). Like the Steyr, the manual is very precise and accurate on how to adjust it, and how to return it to "null" settings if one makes a major error. Despite those careful instructions, many of these guns have had to go back to the factor for adjustment, due to errors by shooters and gunsmiths in "customizing" the gun.

The "failure" of the SAKO in competition, in a way , is similar to the total and absolute failure of the Colt, High Standard, and Diana guns in competition. Each won one ora few gold medals each, never to be used again in Olympic competition. Each has continued to be highly regarded and used, but not in the same competition scene. In Scandinavia, the SAKO remains one of the preferred competition guns. In .32, the higher twist rate also helps in that caliber for competition. My first contact with it was via the KGB operatives, for whom the first version .32 was a favored field gun. Unfortunately perhaps, they were correct about its being very very useful and effective in that context. The Colt, of course, is out of the picture now, but still has its followers. Same for High Standard. Beyond the GSP, the SAKO was a complete sell-out with no need for further advertising, and no need for further olympic use for advertising purposes.

One needs to be judicious about concluding a gun is not good, simply because it is not used in Olympic competitions. For example, many feel the Tanner, Bleiker, and G&E rifles are better than anything Anschutz or Walther offer, even though the first three are not used in olympic competitions. Whether Colt and High Standard dropped out as an olympic gun because of poor quality, or just no need for the advertising .... who knows?

Also to clarify: modularity is not the only feature of the GSP that is a fundamenal design feature. It is an important one, but from the standpoint of accuracy and handling, it is almost irrelevant. The modularity served other purposes.

C Morini (the designer) had a number of .22 automatic designs. One used a tubular magazine and a rather complex feed system with some relations to the FN P90 in some ways. This was marketed as the MG series (Match Guns). The more recent Morini sport pistol sold under the Morini name, for example the CM22 series, uses a vertical magazine in front of the trigger, but deviated from the design and feed parameters of the GSP by the way the bullet is fed, as well as the relationship of weight to gun stabilization, and a slightly lower barrel position. In the GSP, the feed actually is controlled by lips within the receiver wall, not the magazine. In the Morini, it ultimately is controlled by the magazine feed lips and momentum, with the feed directly from a high magazine position. The basic concepts of bolt operation, center of gravity of the gun, magazine position, etc, parallel those of the GSP.

As to what is out of date and what is not, the Russian feeling is that their TOZ-35 (which is from that ancient era) has not been bettered by the current guns, and that the drift towards the Morini has been the cause of a progressive drop in scores over the years. I don't know if they are correct or not, but it does parallel what can be seen in the "modern" gun test targets.

The recent numbers regarding mfr statements of MV are correctly reported. I was not citing those figures in my prior comments, but rather what I had found to be the optimal velocities for the older free pistols and standard pistols prior to the current Morini and Pardini lines. Incidentally, for those using the pre 2012 SSP, only the Lapua ammunition can be used successfully in that gun.

As mentioned before, ammunition details and selection are quite complex, and left for another discussion to avoid straying off the topic of the guns themselves.

As a matter of semantics, "hearsay data" normally would be considered data relayed by one person to another verbally, without the underlying data, methods and findings in the manner of a scientific report. My data primarily are data I've collected personally, and that alone makes it not hearsay. Some of it is numerical data collected by my associates and reviewed by us jointly regarding the origns of the data, their validity, and the conclusions that emerge. That data normally is considered shared scientific or engineering or technical data, and not hearsay, which is simple repetition of conclusions or opinions rather than relay of data for analysis. The usual technical term for this is peer-reviewed technical data, not hearsay. For that reason, "hearsay data" is not a term normally used, as distinct from hearsay (opinions or whatever) and data or reports (data). But that's just a matter of semantics, which may differ regionally.
 
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"Beginner's" Free pistols

One of the paying subscribers to the to the forums asked about free pistols for beginners.

In one sense, this doesn't exist, as all the guns mentioned really are designed for high accuracy work, and require a fair amount of understanding and practice to use effectively.

For a low cost free pistol (beginner or not), there are a few options.

One is the TOZ-35 or 35-M. This gun is widely used in competitions, but occasionally is available for a few hundred dollars, used. When that occurs, it can be an ideal low cost free pistol. However, a significant level of repair and parts replacement may be required.

Another option is the bolt action .22lr pistol. Pardini marketed these as a free pistol, Anschutz as a silhouette gun. These also are available occasionally for a few hundred dollars. The Pardini and Anschutz triggers are quite good. The high barrel position however reduces accuracy in actual hand-held use. Most of these do not have the elaborate grips of the other guns, but that realistically might increase their utility for a beginner, rather than decrease it.

A few guns have been marketed that "emulate" the standard free pistols, such as the Rhoner. These were issued in Germany as low priced clones of the Hammerli 120, and imported to the USA by Beeman when they also were a firearms importer. Occasionally they appear here, but often have high price tages for the quality. They are at the bottom end of quality of this "beginner's" group, with a wide gap between them and the Pardini or Anschutz.

Occasionally, the pre-1960 free pistols, such as the Tell Buchel and various ones from Switzerland from that era crop up. In one sense, these can be good beginner's free pistols as to accuracy. However, in terms of cost, usually they are far from inexpensive. The same is true of the Buhag or Zentrum free pistols from Suhl, East Germany of the Soviet era. These tend to be significantly more accurate than the pre-1950s guns, and pricy here due to rarity.

While inexpensive in Germany, the Soviet MC-55 here is quite rare, and pricy, and with some issues for repair and parts. It also has a track record never outdone in Olympic competitions.

A few other low cost ones were made by various French, German, and other manufacturers.
 
I have a German Marked Walther OSP currently in the Dealer Classified

This dealer item is well-worth viewing. It is one of the early series OSP / GSP guns, with a round barrel and underslung weight. These guns also can accept the .22lr upper sections, but require the oldest style magazines. The recent GSP expert has returned to this barrel geometry. The barrel also is longer than the later OSP guns, which is useful for general shooting purposes.

The are excellent guns, and far less fussy about ammunition than most high quality .22 short pistols
 
As with so many this one is better articles this one is based on the writer. I have been to many events in my life and the one rule is just because person says X is the best does not make it so for all. I have seen guys win with nasty old 1911 that looked like they came out of the parts bin at a gun show and destroy guys using high end 2 and 3 grand race guns. The gun pays a part but even the best gun needs a person holding it that can shoot.
 
"....guys win with nasty old 1911 that looked like they came out of the parts bin at a gun show and destroy guys using high end 2 and 3 grand race guns. The gun pays a part but even the best gun needs a person holding it that can shoot."

The comment raises a number of very important points ... enough of them, it seemed to me, to merit a new thread.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...n-and-shooting-accuracy?p=3700827#post3700827
 
A website of interest?

One of the forum users asked me for "your website" in the past. Until now, I haven't used that method for advertising and sale. However, yesterday that changed, with an experiment in using a social media website to advertise a specialty gun show in NE IL. Lots of high accuracy guns, pistols first, rifles later.

For people on this forum, if you are not in the area, the guns NOT sold at the gun show will be available from my NH location in August. I don't know if I'll have enough upper sections to sell. Magazines will be with gun purchase only.

The website has images in the photo album section. The "pages" section mostly is detailed technical information, but also a full list of about 90% of the guns that will be avaiable. The images are a very small fraction of what will be offered.

My thanks to ATF for finally coming through with import permits for 90% of what was requested.

http://www.meetup.com/Band-in-Highland-Park-High-Precision-Rifles-and-Pistols/

http://www.meetup.com/When-Accuracy-Matters-Guns-Band-in-Highland-Park-II

Remember, some of the guns are one of a kind, others are in very limited quantity. Rifles, late in the summer for the most part. Again, some one of a kind, others a few of that model will be available.
 
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