What am I missing?

You spend $30,000 p/18 months on guns and approximately $15,000 on ammo and yet you complain about how many packaging peanuts there are in a box of AccuWedges for a gun that isn't even yours, going so far as to refuse to do business again with the people who shipped you the AccuWedges.

That's some sad shit right there.

Ridiculously over packaged!!

[smile] Ya sad shit alright. How sad is it?

Well, I'll tell ya, Vector Arms lost well over 100,000 dollars of my future business fifteen years ago for refusing to pick up the $72 dollar return shipping fee to return a positively known, defectively welded, brand new out of the box machine gun that one of their substandard welders produced ( one of at least dozens).
I had planned to buy several of their clone rifles over time. Vector can stick'em where the sun don't shine.

The owner WAS a multi, multi millionaire, drove a Lamborghini and various other high end cars, owned lots of highly collectable guns, ....until he tried to screw the U.S. Army on a $298,000,000 dollar ammo contract by violating the contract rules (36 various counts total) and trying to substitute Chinese ammunition ( which was named as specifically prohibited) in the contract and got caught......and he's balks at sending a call tag for a defective machine gun????

Hey Ralphie boy........you like apples? Well, how do ya like them apples? I hope you wear out the floor, pacing in your federal prison cell.......and just think.......you can't even ever hold a gun in your hand for the rest of your life as a convicted felon....scumbag!
 
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But once cry once. Spent more money on cheap crap than good stuff.

Tried to sell the cheap stuff and lost more than I saved.

I'm glad your cheap stuff works great for you, but I'm not going to stop making fun of flinting, not now, not ever. Doesn't matter what it is, either. Whether it's a gun or a chinese spoon at
walmart. It may surprise you but some of my best friends are the biggest f***ing skinflints on the planet. The thing is though, most of the time when they flint, it's on something that
doesn't matter. Like when I go to HF and buy a battery charger, I'm under no illusion that it's "just as good" as a commercial grade unit, or that I somehow "beat the system" by paying
less. If you want to believe you can do that, then more power to you. It's your right to do so! Then again I also don't ascribe ego to guns or whatever, or stuff I own. Like I have an 800 dollar AR. I'm under no illusion that its anywhere near as good as the old Colt I had, or even the cheapest BCM you can buy today. It works perfectly well and I trust it enough to work if I
needed it to. However, you won't ever catch me calling it "really good" or "you should buy one of these" because I know better about what it actually is and it's place in the
hierarchy of ARs and various build features that are considered important by people who shoot Hajis in the face for a living, and the people who train them to do that. It's possible for me to
own a rifle that is adequate for my needs while still being considered marginal or "average" by anyone else that knows better. I won't lose sleep over it.

I am a bit biased because my entire career I've watched people kick their own ass by flinting on stuff. So the bias runs pretty strong here. It's unavoidable, when you see it validated over and over and over again. To summarize- no, it's not necessary to buy a Rolex if you need a new watch, but please, let's not try to blow smoke up people's asses by insisting that a BOLEX from the dude on the street in NYC is just as good.. [rofl] I mean PSA obviously isn't that bad, but the idea is the same. PSA might actually get to "Timex" level but not sure. Years ago a friend of mine on here and myself were going to destructively test one of their uppers but unfortunately he ended up selling the thing before we had a chance to do it. [rofl]

-Mike
 
I already have a "good" AR, or at least a decent one. Windham with a trigger, bipod, good glass... This would be another (maybe 2) SHTF guns. Neighbor, backup to the backup, spare parts victim, whatever. Kinda like "2 is 1,1 is none" where the numbers are a little higher.

And hell, we all know that when a "bitter clinger" buys a EBR a liberal cries... "
I see no better option than a smallish AR and a pistol would fit the build nicely. 10.5” barrel. Add a quality upper (because we all know that matters most), and a muzzle brake that pushes all the flash toward your enemy, and then the “love thy neighbor” gun would be complete. Who cares about your ears anyways.
 
I already have a "good" AR, or at least a decent one. Windham with a trigger, bipod, good glass... This would be another (maybe 2) SHTF guns. Neighbor, backup to the backup, spare parts victim, whatever. Kinda like "2 is 1,1 is none" where the numbers are a little higher.

And hell, we all know that when a "bitter clinger" buys a EBR a liberal cries... "
The above makes me sad. If 2 is 1, and 1 is none, then I have "0", so I'm at negative numbers... [crying]
Couldn't let it go, especially with free shipping. Getting the new year started off right, fulfilling my annual resolution to make liberals sad. So I one-upped myself and ordered one of these too...


Because F U MAURA.

I mean c'mon, why WOULDN'T I???
Why wouldn't you F MAURA? Because you're not her type? [devil]
 
If the receivers are in spec, they will probably not give you problems.
My experience with high round count non milspec ARs is that the little stuff is what brakes.
It may be something irritating like the dust cover spring, or the grip coming loose and you not having a long 3/16 allen wrench to tighten it.
Or it may be something catastrophic like the bolt breaking, or a locking lug shearing off.
Or a trigger spring failing or the tip of the bolt catch breaking off and ending up jamming the trigger.
I personally dont own any guns Im not willing to bet my life on.
 
Just curious, what is the proof that PSA is junk?

Is the barrel inaccurate? Does the action jam every other round?

I'm sure PSA makes high end stuff, but for $500, what's wrong with a cheap AR?
 
Just curious, what is the proof that PSA is junk?

Is the barrel inaccurate? Does the action jam every other round?

I'm sure PSA makes high end stuff, but for $500, what's wrong with a cheap AR?

Nothing if you don't mind it working occasionally.

If you want more data dig thru my posts. In some thread a few years ago I posted exact inspection numbers for two BCGs out of spec that caused continuous feed and fire issues.

I have put thousands of factory rounds thru numerous BCM rifles with no issues. My wife and I use BCM guns as primary firearms along with G34s. Why? Becuase they work nearly 100% of the time no matter what ammo you put in them (brand/bullet weight/primer type) and regardless of how you care for them. Unlike every single PSA rifle I own.

The PSAs are toys and guns for my kids to learn with. They make great training rifles becuase you get to practice dealing with malfunctions a lot.
 
I have put thousands of factory rounds thru numerous BCM rifles with no issues. My wife and I use BCM guns as primary firearms along with G34s. Why? Becuase they work nearly 100% of the time no matter what ammo you put in them (brand/bullet weight/primer type) and regardless of how you care for them. Unlike every single PSA rifle I own.
OK, so what brand works 100% of the time? There must be someone out there who's fired something that's always gone "bang". For spending big bucks, I want want total reliability. (Like Glocks for pistols for example- the only malfunctions I ever had with any of them could be traced to ammo, never the guns themselves).
 
I'll add most people here likely don't shoot thousands of rounds per year. If you want to buy a PSA and put a few cases of ammo thru it to see if it works, go for it. Most people cant afford to buy a gun and then put $1k-2k of ammo thru it just to be sure it works.

If you don't shoot at least a case of ammo thru a rifle in a year, do yourself a favor and buy a BCM. It'll work every time you pick it up. Even if that is twice a year and you never lube/clean it. That's the difference between a PSA and a quality rifle.
 
OK, so what brand works 100% of the time? There must be someone out there who's fired something that's always gone "bang". For spending big bucks, I want want total reliability. (Like Glocks for pistols for example- the only malfunctions I ever had with any of them could be traced to ammo, never the guns themselves).

BCM. Daniel Defense. LaRue. Noveske. Rock River. Etc.

There's a lot of good gun makers out there. None of the good ones sell rifles for $350 or $500. Becuase they spend a lot of money on quality control.
 
It's not a flaw it's a feature! The more your PSA jams the better you will get at clearing malfunctions. That practice may save your life some day, though the rifle likely will not... [rofl2]

All joking aside, they have their place. Not bad entry level guns for someone new to the platform and not sure if they want to make the investment just yet. Backup guns, spare parts, etc... Mike mentioned them selling different grades of hardware. I'm not sure if they still do but it used to be that they sold PSA and P-TAC. One was more or less shit and the other was "decent" with a negligible difference in price. I can't remember which was which.
 
BCM. Daniel Defense. LaRue. Noveske. Rock River. Etc.

There's a lot of good gun makers out there. None of the good ones sell rifles for $350 or $500. Becuase they spend a lot of money on quality control.
Do you think if PSA expands QC they can jump in price?
Or is PSA stuck in CPOS purgatory?

What about all these other low level players, Bear, Omega and im sure there are more.
 
Do you think if PSA expands QC they can jump in price?
Or is PSA stuck in CPOS purgatory?

What about all these other low level players, Bear, Omega and im sure there are more.

Anyone can make a better product if they invest in the equipment and people necessary to do it. Few business owners have the passion and dedication required to make top tier products. Most settle for a bigger paycheck over reinvestment.
 
Anyone can make a better product if they invest in the equipment and people necessary to do it. Few business owners have the passion and dedication required to make top tier products. Most settle for a bigger paycheck over reinvestment.
Right but are they looking to become the better company or just keep filling that niche for low price stuff that works.
Like Lee Reloading gear ....it is the least expens ive stuff out there and it does work . Level of how well can be left to the end user.
 
Nothing if you don't mind it working occasionally.

If you want more data dig thru my posts. In some thread a few years ago I posted exact inspection numbers for two BCGs out of spec that caused continuous feed and fire issues.

I have put thousands of factory rounds thru numerous BCM rifles with no issues. My wife and I use BCM guns as primary firearms along with G34s. Why? Becuase they work nearly 100% of the time no matter what ammo you put in them (brand/bullet weight/primer type) and regardless of how you care for them. Unlike every single PSA rifle I own.

The PSAs are toys and guns for my kids to learn with. They make great training rifles becuase you get to practice dealing with malfunctions a lot.

Hmm, strange that I've built a few dozen PSA rifles and pistols and not had a single issue with any of them.

What type of malfunctions are you experiencing?
 
Hmm, strange that I've built a few dozen PSA rifles and pistols and not had a single issue with any of them.

What type of malfunctions are you experiencing?

FT fire and FT feed main issues.

I fixed mine. I machined the BCGs into spec and reamed the barrels to just under max chamber spec. I replaced small parts like extractors, gas rings, etc with BCM parts.

Obviously not everyone has a mill, lathe and money for tooling to do this.

Again if you want to buy them go for it. Obviously I own more than one because I like toys. But everyone in my family already has a high quality AR to use a defensive weapon. So these are just range toys.
 
FT fire and FT feed main issues.

I fixed mine. I machined the BCGs into spec and reamed the barrels to just under max chamber spec. I replaced small parts like extractors, gas rings, etc with BCM parts.

Obviously not everyone has a mill, lathe and money for tooling to do this.

Again if you want to buy them go for it. Obviously I own more than one because I like toys. But everyone in my family already has a high quality AR to use a defensive weapon. So these are just range toys.

Ok, my experience with ARs failing to feed has been 99% attributable to either a bad magazine/s or ammo( usually out of spec reloads.) I keep a .223 case gage in my range bag and have gaged other shooters reloads right at the shooting bench and they gaged bad. Improperly set shoulders, improperly sized body, dinged/bent rims, bulged crimps, dented shoulders.
The other 1% were lubrication issues on super clean DRY as a bone new guns that they just bought and didn't lube.

On several occasions I've handed a shooter having feed difficulties a known good mag of mine loaded with clean milsurp ammo and their feed issue went away. This is why I buy new magazines vs used and if I encounter a bad mag ( lips or body damage) I remove the guts and crush it immediately.
A bad mag is a huge liability to one's security and a bad one will never go home in my range bag or mag can with me.

As for the chamber issue, I've never encountered it......yet. Not saying it doesn't or hasn't happened but I'd venture a pretty confident guess that it is very rare, as are bolt carriers being out of spec.
 
UM, everybody's AR is a range toy. None of us are going to battle here in New England.

BCM. Daniel Defense. LaRue. Noveske. Rock River. Etc. Most of these companies have received Mil or LEO contracts for being the low bidders, then jacked their prices for being Mil or LEO used rifles or parts. So every copy cat can play like the cops or soldiers.
2 companies make the same flash hider with same finish. Big name will charge $100 more because people will pay for the name alone, even though it was spit out of the same type of automated CNC machine.

Just sayin'


RC
 
Ok, my experience with ARs failing to feed has been 99% attributable to either a bad magazine/s or ammo( usually out of spec reloads.) I keep a .223 case gage in my range bag and have gaged other shooters reloads right at the shooting bench and they gaged bad. Improperly set shoulders, improperly sized body, dinged/bent rims, bulged crimps, dented shoulders.
The other 1% were lubrication issues on super clean DRY as a bone new guns that they just bought and didn't lube.

On several occasions I've handed a shooter having feed difficulties a known good mag of mine loaded with clean milsurp ammo and their feed issue went away. This is why I buy new magazines vs used and if I encounter a bad mag ( lips or body damage) I remove the guts and crush it immediately.
A bad mag is a huge liability to one's security and a bad one will never go home in my range bag or mag can with me.

As for the chamber issue, I've never encountered it......yet. Not saying it doesn't or hasn't happened but I'd venture a pretty confident guess that it is very rare, as are bolt carriers being out of spec.

I got two out of spec BCGs in a row. Three months apart. So it was a prevalent issue a few years ago.

ARs are pretty forgiving to things being borderline. These BCGs had 3 or more critical dimensions outside of milspec which is already pretty loose.

I don't think you'll find a thread here asking about a bad BCM or if they are worth the $. But you'll find a lot of threads asking if PSA is a good idea.
 
UM, everybody's AR is a range toy. None of us are going to battle here in New England.

BCM. Daniel Defense. LaRue. Noveske. Rock River. Etc. Most of these companies have received Mil or LEO contracts for being the low bidders, then jacked their prices for being Mil or LEO used rifles or parts. So every copy cat can play like the cops or soldiers.
2 companies make the same flash hider with same finish. Big name will charge $100 more because people will pay for the name alone, even though it was spit out of the same type of automated CNC machine.

Just sayin'


RC

I own probably 8 or so BCM BCGs. I've never had an issue with any of them.

There is a huge gap between a PSA BCG and a BCM BCG in finish, quality and measured tolerance.

CNCs are only as good as the people running them and the tools mounted in them. I can make a really shitty part on a Mori Seiki or a Hardinge Super Precision. I can also male an immaculate part on a HAAS. The quality of the part you get is directly related to the quality of the programmer, operator and tooling you use.

I've seen a lot of scrap parts come off CNCs of all types (lasers, routers, mills, lathes, EDM, etc). As a machinist I've made my fair share of paper weights and door stops while learning or getting complacent.

CNCs are not magic wands and bottom tier parts suppliers are not equivalent to tier1 suppliers. If they were, companies like LaRue certainly wouldn't exist because they'd proce themselves right out of the market. If I could buy a $1k OBR from PSA that performed the same as a LaRue, I'd own a lot of OBRs.
 
CNCs are only as good as the people running them and the tools mounted in them. I can make a really shitty part on a Mori Seiki or a Hardinge Super Precision. I can also male an immaculate part on a HAAS. The quality of the part you get is directly related to the quality of the programmer, operator and tooling you use.

That is mostly true.

Just have to say I laughed pretty hard at the side by side of a DMG Mori 800 and a Haas ST 20Y. No doubt the machinist is the last differentiating factor but they are ...... Different already.
 
You guys are acting like it's black magic to tune a cheap ar. Some people just go to the range and shoot. Others swap buffer's, change ammo, swap barrels are the range..

I run into this problem with my day job. Some people can't change oil, others rip the fuel system out because it acted funny.
 
You guys are acting like it's black magic to tune a cheap ar. Some people just go to the range and shoot. Others swap buffer's, change ammo, swap barrels are the range..

I run into this problem with my day job. Some people can't change oil, others rip the fuel system out because it acted funny.

There's no "tuning" parts out of spec. If you mean "replace shityy parts with parts that work" (aka swapping buffers, etc) then I would again ask why did you pretend to "save money" buying a cheap rifle only to turn around and have to buy parts to fix it?

Also, a quality rifle will operate with any commercial or military ammo out of the box. There's no need to go dump hundreds of rounds down range as you swap parts out.
 
There's no "tuning" parts out of spec. If you mean "replace shityy parts with parts that work" (aka swapping buffers, etc) then I would again ask why did you pretend to "save money" buying a cheap rifle only to turn around and have to buy parts to fix it?

Also, a quality rifle will operate with any commercial or military ammo out of the box. There's no need to go dump hundreds of rounds down range as you swap parts out.

Some of the people in this hobby like to tinker. Tweak spring rates, polish actions, and reloading. Have a hobby, a reason to sit in the basement and tumble some brass, and clean a gun..

Then there's the "my Glock is perfect from glock and no one should touch it Glock knows best." Those people can f*** a duck.

Everyone of these tinkers has enough ar part sin a bin to build another. The other group thumbs their nose at the tinker for being poor
 
UM, everybody's AR is a range toy. None of us are going to battle here in New England.

BCM. Daniel Defense. LaRue. Noveske. Rock River. Etc. Most of these companies have received Mil or LEO contracts for being the low bidders, then jacked their prices for being Mil or LEO used rifles or parts. So every copy cat can play like the cops or soldiers.
2 companies make the same flash hider with same finish. Big name will charge $100 more because people will pay for the name alone, even though it was spit out of the same type of automated CNC machine.

Just sayin'


RC

I'll go further - LEO contracts - how many rounds are fired out of those sedan-carbeanz in the first place??? I was in a squad car 18 months ago. They had Stag carbines. Betting it sat in the car and was shot very rarely in it's LEO lifetime.

My point is that an LEO contract isn't the end-all be-all. They'll not wring out more than a civilian owned model. Because if you police in an area that requires a lot of carbine fire, maybe you should consider moving. LOL
 
I got two out of spec BCGs in a row. Three months apart. So it was a prevalent issue a few years ago.

ARs are pretty forgiving to things being borderline. These BCGs had 3 or more critical dimensions outside of milspec which is already pretty loose.

I don't think you'll find a thread here asking about a bad BCM or if they are worth the $. But you'll find a lot of threads asking if PSA is a good idea.

I wouln't doubt that bad parts have gotten out onto the market here and there, it happens in every manufactured good....from the smallest to the largest, but that is no reason to condemn all of them besides your choice of purchase as chronically defective.

One reason why you likely won't find a thread asking about BCM is because most people entering the world of ARs are not even considering buying a high priced gun right out of the gate, thats why they're more likely to ask about a gun that is more affordable to their budget. And PSA is obviously more than a good idea, they're selling them like hotcakes and more and more people keep buying them. They also stand behind their products and parts with a lifetime warranty.

Do you remember who your defective BCGs were made by and sold by?
 
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