What is "long range" for self defense?

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We all understand that most self-defense is very close range, from contact out to two or three yards. I got to thinking somehow about how a self-defense carbine would be zeroed in, and from there to what the longest range for self-defense would be.

Since a carbine is home defense (as opposed to CCW), most incidents would be indoors. In my house, that would put the max at about 30 feet (10 yards). Other houses might go to 50 feet or so, I suppose. I don't suppose outdoors would be much longer except in very rare circumstances. A carbine might be used against an animal, but let's exclude that situation.

Is a range over 10 yards a 1:100 situation, or 1:1000, or what? Anyone have an idea?
 
i would just sight it in for 100 yards and know how its going to impact closer by practiceing with it. i doubt you are going to have to shoot anyone more than 10 yards away unless the klan is on your lawn or something.
 
If you're indoors with a carbine it doesn't matter what range you rifle is zeroed at, point center mass and shoot.
 
My 2 cents? Zero at 50 and 200 yards; standard improved battle zero. There are sometimes shootings at long range where civilian good-guys were involved, like the 1966 University of Texas sniper. Probability of this happening?

Pretty much zero.
 
Unless your gonna snipe a ways off for some reason, grab a shotgun and throw the appropriate load in it.
 
Self-defense distances larger than your average elevator car and smaller than the confines of the average house beg for a shotgun.

If you must use a rifle; C.O.M. inside of 100yds.
 

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[laugh]
 
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If you're indoors with a carbine it doesn't matter what range you rifle is zeroed at, point center mass and shoot.

There are a lot of other issues that question the utility of a carbine for in-the-house defense, but if one assumes that is the choice, this advice is spot on. My M4 is sighted for 200 yards, and the curve ranges from 2" low to a tad under 2" high anywhere short of this. That two inches is less than the likely shooter aiming error under defensive conditions.
 
There are a lot of other issues that question the utility of a carbine for in-the-house defense, but if one assumes that is the choice, this advice is spot on. My M4 is sighted for 200 yards, and the curve ranges from 2" low to a tad under 2" high anywhere short of this. That two inches is less than the likely shooter aiming error under defensive conditions.

Which is why I never said anything about the choice of the weapon. [grin]
 
I must have put it badly. I wasn't so much interested in the sighing issue as the chances of an encounter at longer than point blank range. Someone mentioned the U of Texas incident, and there are incidents like Columbine but those are once a decade, country-wide. For a civilian, it must be one in a million (or more).

As for sighting, thinking in terms of a pistol cartridge carbine such as a CX4 or KelTec or even Marlin, I would sight it in at whatever works for me at the range (say 25 years if indoor, 50 yard outdoor), and then practice enough a shorter ranges to have confidence.
 
I must have put it badly. I wasn't so much interested in the sighing issue as the chances of an encounter at longer than point blank range. Someone mentioned the U of Texas incident, and there are incidents like Columbine but those are once a decade, country-wide. For a civilian, it must be one in a million (or more).

As for sighting, thinking in terms of a pistol cartridge carbine such as a CX4 or KelTec or even Marlin, I would sight it in at whatever works for me at the range (say 25 years if indoor, 50 yard outdoor), and then practice enough a shorter ranges to have confidence.

Again: why? For HD use a pistol or a shotgun. For ranges under 25yards aim center mass and pull the trigger - it'll be close enough.
 
I must have put it badly. I wasn't so much interested in the sighing issue as the chances of an encounter at longer than point blank range. Someone mentioned the U of Texas incident, and there are incidents like Columbine but those are once a decade, country-wide. For a civilian, it must be one in a million (or more).

It's pretty much impossible to determine the probability of being in such an incident. Given the back of an envelope, just plugging population numbers, you might say the probability of being somewhat present for such an incident (say, on the same college campus) if it occurred every year would be around 2 ten-thousandths of a percent. That's only slightly more dangerous than lightning. Since it doesn't occur every year, divide by another 10 or 20, and it's less chance than being struck by lightning.

Who am I kidding? It's all but impossible to say how likely it is. Your odds of being struck by lightning are probably much higher.
 
You don't aim at inside the house distances with a rifle. With a little practice you will be able to just bring the muzzle up from low ready and shoot from there. Not only is it faster, but you maintain better control of the rifle. I did a carbine course where we engaged targets out to 10 yards that way and damned if with a little practice i wasn't able to hit center mass very quickly and consistently.

by the end of the drill most of us were able to come up and put 5 or 6 shots into a humanoid target within a couple of seconds. At that class I was shooting a heavy rifle length LMT MRP with a brake on it and was able to get off significantly more than the 5 or 6 in the 2 seconds we had. (the gun had essentially no recoil and no muzzle rise)

We all understand that most self-defense is very close range, from contact out to two or three yards. I got to thinking somehow about how a self-defense carbine would be zeroed in, and from there to what the longest range for self-defense would be.

Since a carbine is home defense (as opposed to CCW), most incidents would be indoors. In my house, that would put the max at about 30 feet (10 yards). Other houses might go to 50 feet or so, I suppose. I don't suppose outdoors would be much longer except in very rare circumstances. A carbine might be used against an animal, but let's exclude that situation.

Is a range over 10 yards a 1:100 situation, or 1:1000, or what? Anyone have an idea?
 
You don't aim at inside the house distances with a rifle. With a little practice you will be able to just bring the muzzle up from low ready and shoot from there. Not only is it faster, but you maintain better control of the rifle. I did a carbine course where we engaged targets out to 10 yards that way and damned if with a little practice i wasn't able to hit center mass very quickly and consistently.

by the end of the drill most of us were able to come up and put 5 or 6 shots into a humanoid target within a couple of seconds. At that class I was shooting a heavy rifle length LMT MRP with a brake on it and was able to get off significantly more than the 5 or 6 in the 2 seconds we had. (the gun had essentially no recoil and no muzzle rise)


If you have time to bring the rifle up to eye level, then you have time to use the sights. The difficulty of the shot will determine how acceptable a sight picture you need
 
If you have time to bring the rifle up to eye level, then you have time to use the sights. The difficulty of the shot will determine how acceptable a sight picture you need

It didn't come up to eye level and the stock never touched our shoulders. The gun was held back, almost like in a retention position.

The class was in Maine, the name of the group escapes me but the instructor was the firearms training officer for the Portland PD and had been a swat guy for many years.
It was great, he was left handed like me, so for the first AR class I've ever taken, I didn't have to translate left to right.
 
Back to the OP's question. The only scenario where I could imagine a long distance requirement for self defense is if I lived on a large cleared lot and someone was approaching the house while shooting. Pretty remote, but theoretically possible.

A more likely scenario is you hear calls for help. You can legally use deadly force in defense of a third person in imminent risk of grave bodily harm in pretty much all states. This is also one of the rare circumstances even in New England states where you do not first have a responsibility to retreat if possible.

In that scenario, if you saw adequate separation between the bad guy and the victim, you could take the shot from as far as you felt comfortable. Take out a rapist at 75 ft? I'm not that good, but its plausible.
 
The only scenario where I could imagine a long distance requirement for self defense is if I lived on a large cleared lot and someone was approaching the house while shooting.

Agree. You'd have to be returning fire.

A more likely scenario is you hear calls for help. You can legally use deadly force in defense of a third person in imminent risk of grave bodily harm in pretty much all states.

I didn't know that. You'd have to be pretty sure you understood who was the aggressor, though.
 
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