Check this out... Pretty extensive testing..
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
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What is the best self defense ammo or caliber. Extensive testing...
- Thread starter ThePreBanMan
- Start date
cockpitbob
NES Member
Great find! Thanks for posting this.
The results are very interesting. I've been carrying Federal HST because of recommendations of people I trust. In 147gr 9mm it does very well, with good consistent expansion, much better than 147gr Speer Gold Dot which basically doesn't expand. OTOH, in .380 the reverse is true with the Gold Dot expanding nicely and HST just drilling a 0.380" hole in the gel.
The pictures of the 5 fired bullets tell an interesting story. For some brands all 5 look equally expanded but there are some, like the .380 Barnes or .380 Hornady XTP, where 2 expanded nicely but the other 3 look unfired. I hate inconsistency and this makes me think they have manufacturing quality problems.
I need to change my .380 carry load since I might as well be carrying FMJ because the Fed HST isn't expanding. Tough choice though because the .380 has so little energy that the rounds that expand don't penetrate as far.
The results are very interesting. I've been carrying Federal HST because of recommendations of people I trust. In 147gr 9mm it does very well, with good consistent expansion, much better than 147gr Speer Gold Dot which basically doesn't expand. OTOH, in .380 the reverse is true with the Gold Dot expanding nicely and HST just drilling a 0.380" hole in the gel.
The pictures of the 5 fired bullets tell an interesting story. For some brands all 5 look equally expanded but there are some, like the .380 Barnes or .380 Hornady XTP, where 2 expanded nicely but the other 3 look unfired. I hate inconsistency and this makes me think they have manufacturing quality problems.
I need to change my .380 carry load since I might as well be carrying FMJ because the Fed HST isn't expanding. Tough choice though because the .380 has so little energy that the rounds that expand don't penetrate as far.
cockpitbob
NES Member
Interesting (weird) looking stuff. I'd have to see some test results for it. Hopefully these guys at luckygunner.com will add it to their testing so we can see side-by-side results. One down side of the Polycase for me is it's a pretty hot load, even for a +P. I don't like being hard on my semi-autos, and my little S&W Bodyguard isn't that easy to control. It's barely a 2 finger gun with the mag extension and a 1 finger gun without the extension.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I knew folks here would appreciate. There is really some interesting stuff in there. Study looks to have been well done, controlled enough, and the pics of the fired bullets tell a huge part of the story. It's got me thinking about changing my carry ammo. Right now I'm carrying the 9mm Fed HydraShok and it looks to be an inconsistent performer as well. Surprisingly the Remington Golden Saber +P did really well.
Some of the bullets not expanding I think are a bi-product of the "heavy clothing test". The hollow points become clogged/filled with clothing they penetrate through... the testing was based off of the FBI's standardized testing as I understand it.
I thought HydraShoks would do well because they have that point in the center of the hollow point... .but guess not.
Some of the bullets not expanding I think are a bi-product of the "heavy clothing test". The hollow points become clogged/filled with clothing they penetrate through... the testing was based off of the FBI's standardized testing as I understand it.
I thought HydraShoks would do well because they have that point in the center of the hollow point... .but guess not.
I am sure the resulting court case will be informative. Not that the perp does not have it coming, but someone will find it horrifying that you intentionally targeted the face to compensate for relatively small and low power ammunition.
I once knew a guy that was working in a C-store when a robbery happened. He recognized the robber. Robber recognized him. Robber decided he didn't want to leave a live witness who could identify him by name. Nine .22lr rounds to the face and neck. Robber's problem was not solved, they went from bad to worse. Specifically, from armed robbery to attempted murder. They sure left ugly scars, but he survived to testify.
There have been reports floating around for years that the HydraShok rounds weren't expanding and acting essentially like ball ammo in LEO involved shootings. Federal's newer HST line seems to have eliminated that problem. I use 230 grain .45 auto HST for my home defense pistol, but carry 124 grain Gold Dot 9mm+P in my EDC. Both have good results in the tests shown above, in addition to favorable street reports from self-defense or LEO involved shootings.
AllaSnackbah
NES Member
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ive been carrying hornady 135gr +p critical duty for a few year now, looked like it did pretty good. i dont nerd out to hard on it though.
ReluctantDecoy
NES Member
Rookie question here: If the ballistics between 9mm and .40 look fairly close for expansion on the upper performing end, what then is the advantage of .40 in terms of stopping power?
HorizontalHunter
NES Member
Shot placement is always king but I still want maximum expansion and sufficient penetration.
Bob
As someone who has run a bunch of both, it certainly isn't. Look up the tests.
Compare something like RA9TA (which was one of the gold standard 9mm loads aside from ones like the Gold Dot 124+P, HST, and a couple others) and its somewhat different from the others.
-Mike
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I thought Winchester SXT was the "same exact thing"...
(Good) Tests like the stuff tnoutdoors9 does, are also so you don't get ripped off and buy JHPs that are effectively worse than ball ammo sometimes, amongst other
things. 15 years ago the testing was much more necessary because the volume of garbage that was out there was much greater than it is
now.
It's good to be informed regardless of your first statement being 100% true.
-Mike
richc
NES Member
Amazing study. I love checking out research like this.
But I'm a pragmatist too. Just thinking out loud... but how many NES members have had to draw their personal weapon for self defense purposes? How many have had to shoot for self defense? And in how many cases would that extra few inches of penetration or expansion really made a difference in the outcome of said event?
Having the absolute top of the line ammo in the gun versus regular old ball ammo has a very, very, very small likelihood of being an important factor for any of us. Probably a lot smaller than hitting the billion dollar lottery tonight.
Personally I like HST... but I'm also realistic and hope I never have to use it.
But I'm a pragmatist too. Just thinking out loud... but how many NES members have had to draw their personal weapon for self defense purposes? How many have had to shoot for self defense? And in how many cases would that extra few inches of penetration or expansion really made a difference in the outcome of said event?
Having the absolute top of the line ammo in the gun versus regular old ball ammo has a very, very, very small likelihood of being an important factor for any of us. Probably a lot smaller than hitting the billion dollar lottery tonight.
Personally I like HST... but I'm also realistic and hope I never have to use it.
Sorry, I wasn't including practice calibers and was only considering proper self defense calibers such as .45 ACP and .357 Mag.
![[pot]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/037.gif "Stir the pot [pot]")
LOL... No, I am not starting that. I carry 9mm most of the time. I never did try Black Talon in 9mm back in the day as I only had a .357 for self defense. That ammo was pretty impressive in .357- can't comment on 9mm.
I'd have to find the test, but I do believe it was those two (Black Talon and Gold Dot) that were compared. It's all apples and oranges now and to put Black Talon in proper context, what else was available in the 90's? Maybe some other mythical ammo types...
I had heard that rumor but couldn't confirm.
Nice that we have some much improved choices now. Props to OP for posting this extensive test. How 'bout penetration for some of those 10mm rounds?
