Which 9mm jhp should i buy?

[drgrant]

I get it man... you don't like .40. But the barrier I was mainly referring to was a car door. Massad Ayoob says that if things go sideways, it is likely that you will have to defend yourself against assailants in vehicles, so he recommends everyone own an AR-10. It is unlikely that you will be standing directly in front of a vehicle. Thats how you get run over.

Mas Ayoob makes a living off of barking about corner cases. If you read enough of his columns you would understand that. Your odds of winning powerball are better off than being involved in a replica of a mas ayoob fear porn piece. Making gun choices based off gun rag fear porn is generally insane......

TO BE FAIR however....

its worth noting that ALL major calibers have benefited from improved ammunition over the past decade or so, in terms of making more parity on this intermediate barrier "issue. "

In Paul Harrell's comparison video, he pointed out better splits with 40 than 45 because it has less recoil. Jerry Miculek has pointed out on video that his personal carry gun is a .40, and Hickock 45 points out that the 40 "hits a lot harder" on his steel targets than 9mm.

Lol those guys are accomplished, expert shooters, especially Jerry. What most people think of recoil vs what they think of recoil and feel as recoil are two very different
things. Also that is subjective depending on the shooter and the guns in use being compared. Also at some juncture people have physical limitations (like hand size) that can drastically affect ability to handle handguns. Some of this is overcome with technique but after a point there are physical differences. If I take an expert instructor and have him train a typical 12 yr old girl and a 30 yr old drywaller dude with gorilla hands a couple hours apiece with a 40 lobbing 155s and 165s (and not those pussy subsonic anemic mc lumpy shit 180s every 40 type likes to shoot) who do you think is going to have better splits? I'm betting on drywall dude. (I use this as an example because one of the plate shoot guys I know is a drywaller and watching him shoot pistols is like watching a human ransom rest firing a gun, basically).

As far as hitting steel harder... so? Does that mean anything in the real world WRT self defense? Oh wait, no it doesnt.

I am perplexed by your irrational hatred of a caliber. "Hurr Durr ..faggy...hurr durr excessive..annoying...punishment..durr dumb"
Did an ex trade one of your guns for a Kahr PM40, or something?

Let me qualify something here. I carried .40 S&W handguns on and off for at least 6 years ?(I cant remember, I lost track.... )

HK USP .40 Compact
HK USP .40 Full size
HK P2000 .40 LEM
Sig P229 (I had a pair of these, because I liked the gun)
Glock 22 Gen4 (this was late, I think I owned it 2 months, sold it, although it shot well, by then I was "over" 40)

I might have even forgotten a couple.

I shot decent with most of these guns, notably the USPc .40. That gun was a constant companion for awhile. It was accurate, I could control it, and make good
hits with it. Most of the reason these 40s got dumped is because eventually I bought a Glock 19 and after running and shooting that for awhile, including some drills and
shot timer work with friends and making comparisons, not to mention spending too much time researching actual wound ballistics and that sort of thing using sources that didnt
include shitty gun rags.... woke up one morning basically opened the gun safe and sue simmonsed myself....

(NSFW)
(Opens safe and sees like 6 40s inside it, ponders why they exist)

View: https://youtu.be/lmK4_Byin0Y?t=5


(Or as Casey Kasem would say "This is ponderus man. f***in ponderous. "

It was from that point that I realized 40 sucked and was losing its relevance in my gun ecosystem.

Plus at the time, I needed the money. Getting rid of guns that fired 40 MEH seemed the obvious place to start.

Full Disclosure: I still own one .40 SW handgun now... a USP full .40. I helped out a friend by buying his and I got an offer I couldnt refuse for the
package. Great gun. Properly designed for the (dumb) caliber. SCHOOL BUS tho.

Would I trust .40 with my life as a defensive cartridge? Sure. It's competent enough. And I think if you like it you should
carry it. but I cant abide this constant mental masturbation that its somehow "way better" than its peers in the real world, it's not.

There is no planet where someones needs arent usually, in the long run, better served by buying something else.

Like take this thing. Like if someone gave me a Platinum Ford Escape for free would I drive it? Sure. It would probably get me where I needed
to go. It's a vehicle, it works. However....

I mean, look at this thing. It's a piece of dog meat. Look at it!!!!! LOOK AT IT!



At the end of the day though it's a Ford Escape. And it sucks because of that gut wrenching, soul killing mediocrity of the whole package sucks.

It's the kind of thing that the mediocrity and sucking isnt apparent so much until you objectively take a few steps back from it and look at it from
afar. .40 people dont see this because they are too nearsighted.

.40 SW embodies this kind of mediocrity in spades. I could respect .40 more if they RENAMED it to " .40 Meh " At least it would be more
descriptive.



"Euuuugh".

Rob Ryan understands.



Like if .40 SW had a radio station... it'd be this....

(this was the theme playing in GTA1 and 9 out of 10 times it was playing when you were cruising around in a shitty car, it embodies the existence of the 40 and crossovers)


View: https://youtu.be/8Iv-hZIPUD8?t=12

I shoot hand guns in .22 ,38 special, 357, 9mm, 40, 44 and 45 and I enjoy shooting them all. Recoil has never really bothered me because I learned how to shoot a pistol in boot with an ancient 1911. In a decent gun with a little weight to it, 40 is really no big deal. Does it recoil more than 9mm? Yep. But so do 357 mag, 45, and 44 mag

.40 isnt a big deal to me WRT recoil overall, I learned how to manage the recoil. However, that doeasnt mean that its still overall, stupid, retarded, UNDESIREABLE attribute in terms of it being a viable mainstream handgun cartridge. Also .40 typically doesnt come in a heavy steel package that most 357s, 444s, and a lot of 45s do. 95% of the time, "in the wild" of gun shops and ranges, .40SW is embodied and dispensed in a plastic gun that weighs about 20 ounces maybe. Maybe less. Tops.

Every other instructor in america cringes when a student shows up and only has a .40 (especially a plastic one, which 99% of them will be in the wild) and is talking about how they suck at shooting it. That stupid f***ing mongrel cartridge just made the instructors job two to three times as hard, because now he has to deprogram the persons flinch and a whole bunch of other bad habits from that. All because some a**h*** told him or her to "buy a 40" for a first handgun.

Every other gun owner upon dumping that 40:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUqnYqnm51U

Of course those people got lucky and got rid of it fast. Others are not so lucky. and keep punching themselves in the dick with it. thankfully for the sake of the industry (and its new consumers) a lot of the 40 SW weird fetish has died.

If you are going to hate a caliber, hate 32 acp or 41 mag or something. Or 455 Webley. But 40 has it's place.

No, it actually doesn't. That's kind of the core of "the thing". It's a "cartridge without a home" Outside of USPSA, there is no longer a "killer app" for the .40 anymore, no target market other than some weird people who cling onto stopping power myths. Which is why gun companies and agencies are dumping it left and right. .40 S&W was a fever dream, an end product of a culmination of gun mafia greed, junk science and boogeymen LE crime phantasms of the 80s and 90s, its basically what reefer madness would have been if it was discussing handgun stopping power. The cascading series of weird things that happened to spawn the cartridge known as .40 SW was as bizarre as the salem witch trials, although at least vs that the intentions behind 40 were generally good, but people got carried away.

10 years from now I will be surprised if there are any more than 2 or 3 mainstream manufacturers even making ANY .40s, and I bet 80% of the .40s that arent 2011s will come from Glock and
most of the rest from HK. (both of them have this thing about trying to support product and customer bases for a long time, especially Glock). Even then, most 40s will be a special order
sort of thing. Ironically I think Glock basically saved 10mm from "nobody making new guns" extinction and it is likely going to do the same for the .40 when the time comes.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

Mas Ayoob makes a living off of barking about corner cases. If you read enough of his columns you would understand that. Your odds of winning powerball are better off than being involved in a replica of a mas ayoob fear porn piece. Making gun choices based off gun rag fear porn is generally insane......

TO BE FAIR however....

its worth noting that ALL major calibers have benefited from improved ammunition over the past decade or so, in terms of making more parity on this intermediate barrier "issue. "



Lol those guys are accomplished, expert shooters, especially Jerry. What most people think of recoil vs what they think of recoil and feel as recoil are two very different
things. Also that is subjective depending on the shooter and the guns in use being compared. Also at some juncture people have physical limitations (like hand size) that can drastically affect ability to handle handguns. Some of this is overcome with technique but after a point there are physical differences. If I take an expert instructor and have him train a typical 12 yr old girl and a 30 yr old drywaller dude with gorilla hands a couple hours apiece with a 40 lobbing 155s and 165s (and not those pussy subsonic anemic mc lumpy shit 180s every 40 type likes to shoot) who do you think is going to have better splits? I'm betting on drywall dude. (I use this as an example because one of the plate shoot guys I know is a drywaller and watching him shoot pistols is like watching a human ransom rest firing a gun, basically).

As far as hitting steel harder... so? Does that mean anything in the real world WRT self defense? Oh wait, no it doesnt.


Let me qualify something here. I carried .40 S&W handguns on and off for at least 6 years ?(I cant remember, I lost track.... )

HK USP .40 Compact
HK USP .40 Full size
HK P2000 .40 LEM
Sig P229 (I had a pair of these, because I liked the gun)
Glock 22 Gen4 (this was late, I think I owned it 2 months, sold it, although it shot well, by then I was "over" 40)

I might have even forgotten a couple.

I shot decent with most of these guns, notably the USPc .40. That gun was a constant companion for awhile. It was accurate, I could control it, and make good
hits with it. Most of the reason these 40s got dumped is because eventually I bought a Glock 19 and after running and shooting that for awhile, including some drills and
shot timer work with friends and making comparisons, not to mention spending too much time researching actual wound ballistics and that sort of thing using sources that didnt
include shitty gun rags.... woke up one morning basically opened the gun safe and sue simmonsed myself....

(NSFW)
(Opens safe and sees like 6 40s inside it, ponders why they exist)

View: https://youtu.be/lmK4_Byin0Y?t=5


(Or as Casey Kasem would say "This is ponderus man. f***in ponderous. "

It was from that point that I realized 40 sucked and was losing its relevance in my gun ecosystem.

Plus at the time, I needed the money. Getting rid of guns that fired 40 MEH seemed the obvious place to start.

Full Disclosure: I still own one .40 SW handgun now... a USP full .40. I helped out a friend by buying his and I got an offer I couldnt refuse for the
package. Great gun. Properly designed for the (dumb) caliber. SCHOOL BUS tho.

Would I trust .40 with my life as a defensive cartridge? Sure. It's competent enough. And I think if you like it you should
carry it. but I cant abide this constant mental masturbation that its somehow "way better" than its peers in the real world, it's not.

There is no planet where someones needs arent usually, in the long run, better served by buying something else.

Like take this thing. Like if someone gave me a Platinum Ford Escape for free would I drive it? Sure. It would probably get me where I needed
to go. It's a vehicle, it works. However....

I mean, look at this thing. It's a piece of dog meat. Look at it!!!!! LOOK AT IT!

View attachment 637141

At the end of the day though it's a Ford Escape. And it sucks because of that gut wrenching, soul killing mediocrity of the whole package sucks.

It's the kind of thing that the mediocrity and sucking isnt apparent so much until you objectively take a few steps back from it and look at it from
afar. .40 people dont see this because they are too nearsighted.

.40 SW embodies this kind of mediocrity in spades. I could respect .40 more if they RENAMED it to " .40 Meh " At least it would be more
descriptive.

View attachment 637142

"Euuuugh".

Rob Ryan understands.

View attachment 637143

Like if .40 SW had a radio station... it'd be this....

(this was the theme playing in GTA1 and 9 out of 10 times it was playing when you were cruising around in a shitty car, it embodies the existence of the 40 and crossovers)


View: https://youtu.be/8Iv-hZIPUD8?t=12






.40 isnt a big deal to me WRT recoil overall, I learned how to manage the recoil. However, that doeasnt mean that its still overall, stupid, retarded, UNDESIREABLE attribute in terms of it being a viable mainstream handgun cartridge. Also .40 typically doesnt come in a heavy steel package that most 357s, 444s, and a lot of 45s do. 95% of the time, "in the wild" of gun shops and ranges, .40SW is embodied and dispensed in a plastic gun that weighs about 20 ounces maybe. Maybe less. Tops.

Every other instructor in america cringes when a student shows up and only has a .40 (especially a plastic one, which 99% of them will be in the wild) and is talking about how they suck at shooting it. That stupid f***ing mongrel cartridge just made the instructors job two to three times as hard, because now he has to deprogram the persons flinch and a whole bunch of other bad habits from that. All because some a**h*** told him or her to "buy a 40" for a first handgun.

Every other gun owner upon dumping that 40:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUqnYqnm51U

Of course those people got lucky and got rid of it fast. Others are not so lucky. and keep punching themselves in the dick with it. thankfully for the sake of the industry (and its new consumers) a lot of the 40 SW weird fetish has died.



No, it actually doesn't. That's kind of the core of "the thing". It's a "cartridge without a home" Outside of USPSA, there is no longer a "killer app" for the .40 anymore, no target market other than some weird people who cling onto stopping power myths. Which is why gun companies and agencies are dumping it left and right. .40 S&W was a fever dream, an end product of a culmination of gun mafia greed, junk science and boogeymen LE crime phantasms of the 80s and 90s, its basically what reefer madness would have been if it was discussing handgun stopping power. The cascading series of weird things that happened to spawn the cartridge known as .40 SW was as bizarre as the salem witch trials, although at least vs that the intentions behind 40 were generally good, but people got carried away.

10 years from now I will be surprised if there are any more than 2 or 3 mainstream manufacturers even making ANY .40s, and I bet 80% of the .40s that arent 2011s will come from Glock and
most of the rest from HK. (both of them have this thing about trying to support product and customer bases for a long time, especially Glock). Even then, most 40s will be a special order
sort of thing. Ironically I think Glock basically saved 10mm from "nobody making new guns" extinction and it is likely going to do the same for the .40 when the time comes.

Not sure what the point is but it's very long though so... that's something.

I've been hearing about 40's demise for over a decade now. Same for 45's. Yet, S&W recently released their M&P 2.0. Guess what caliber it comes in? Considering that the only new guns released in the last 12 months from big manufacturers are the aforementioned S&W M&P 2.0, FN Hi-Power replica, and SIG P229(which is just an updated 226). I say, 40 is doing just fine in 2022. Actually, it's doing better than ever mainly due to the market being full of very inexpensive used Glock 22/23.

 

[drgrant]

I've been hearing about 40's demise for over a decade now. Same for 45's.

.45 is going to be a lot more persistant than .40 is in the long run, due to LE still using it and not running away from it. Plus there are a myriad of shooting sports that
take advantage of .45 ACP.

Yet, S&W recently released their M&P 2.0. Guess what caliber it comes in?

Recently? You consider 2017 to be recent? that's like.... about 5 yrs ago.

Honestly the only reason smith does that at all is because they are still courting LE. And some LE still runs .40. Also probably they have weird smith people they can sell
them to. (thats another whole archetype, similar to like harley davidson or jeep people).

Considering that the only new guns released in the last 12 months from big manufacturers are the aforementioned S&W M&P 2.0, FN Hi-Power replica, and SIG P229(which is just an updated 226). I say, 40 is doing just fine in 2022.

This is delusions of grandeur from the 40 cult. Go in any dealer of consequence and outside of Glocks and a few M&Ps , new gun .40 inventory is liable to be dogshit. Dealers dont buy them as much because nobody wants the things.

I worked in gun retail on weekends since the start of covid, basically. I sold probably not even a dozen .40s, and out of those, most of them were
used. Contrast to like many dozens of 9mm, 380, 45, etc. The numbers arent even close. And this is a shop where 50% of the buyer base isnt
newbs. (so you would think, higher % would be likely to buy 40 by being familiar with it). At least 8 of those 40s were sold to guys I know who are
serious 40 fanbois or serious gun collectors. (like dudes that buy anything). Basically its only of interest at all to a small segment of well established gun buyers.

Also look at companies like Ruger which used to sell 40s like the SR40, etc. Wheres their 40 now? OH WAIT ITS GONE.
Ruger stopped making .40s... because they realized its f***ing stupid. They only make 9mm and 45s now even in their large frame american
series. SR40, SR40c, gone. (those SRs were actually decent guns too, but lets face facts, nobody was buying the 40s even when they did make them)

BTW anyone buying the HP replica, no dealer is buying 40s in that, if they make them. That will be a dead sku.

Also when you go into a gun shop even though FN is a small player.... what do you see? 9mm, .45, and 5.7. FN probably sells more 5.7s than they ever did 40s. Do they even make 40s anymore?

Kel Tec used to make a Sub 2000 .40. I dont even know if they make them anymore, I know dealers stopped buying .40 Sub2000s, because.... nobody bought them. Dealers I know
were literally calling Kel Tec going "stop making these f***ing things in 40 and make them in 9 instead. Everyone wants the 9s, the 40s I have to give away and I lose my shirt on
them". That was a problem a DECADE ago nevermind now.

Same with the Beretta Storm 40. Those f***ing things just larded up dealer inventory with unsellable crap.

I think Hi Point still makes 40s but their customer base probably dovetails well with some of the 40 demographic.

Oh wait.... here comes a future HP customer now...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyiDVqywGM4


There are a half dozen other companies that make pistol caliber carbines, on the medium to high end. None of them are selling a .40

A lot has changed in the past decade. That reality does not include ".40 growing in popularity or considered a desireable chambering to buy a handgun in".

Actually, it's doing better than ever mainly due to the market being full of very inexpensive used Glock 22/23.

People only buying guns because theyre a good deal is not a great indicator of future success for a handgun chambering.

 

[40 Creedmoor fan]

.45 is going to be a lot more persistant than .40 is in the long run, due to LE still using it and not running away from it. Plus there are a myriad of shooting sports that
take advantage of .45 ACP.



Recently? You consider 2017 to be recent? that's like.... about 5 yrs ago.

Honestly the only reason smith does that at all is because they are still courting LE. And some LE still runs .40. Also probably they have weird smith people they can sell
them to. (thats another whole archetype, similar to like harley davidson or jeep people).



This is delusions of grandeur from the 40 cult. Go in any dealer of consequence and outside of Glocks and a few M&Ps , new gun .40 inventory is liable to be dogshit. Dealers dont buy them as much because nobody wants the things.

I worked in gun retail on weekends since the start of covid, basically. I sold probably not even a dozen .40s, and out of those, most of them were
used. Contrast to like many dozens of 9mm, 380, 45, etc. The numbers arent even close. And this is a shop where 50% of the buyer base isnt
newbs. (so you would think, higher % would be likely to buy 40 by being familiar with it). At least 8 of those 40s were sold to guys I know who are
serious 40 fanbois or serious gun collectors. (like dudes that buy anything). Basically its only of interest at all to a small segment of well established gun buyers.

Also look at companies like Ruger which used to sell 40s like the SR40, etc. Wheres their 40 now? OH WAIT ITS GONE.
Ruger stopped making .40s... because they realized its f***ing stupid. They only make 9mm and 45s now even in their large frame american
series. SR40, SR40c, gone. (those SRs were actually decent guns too, but lets face facts, nobody was buying the 40s even when they did make them)

BTW anyone buying the HP replica, no dealer is buying 40s in that, if they make them. That will be a dead sku.

Also when you go into a gun shop even though FN is a small player.... what do you see? 9mm, .45, and 5.7. FN probably sells more 5.7s than they ever did 40s. Do they even make 40s anymore?

Kel Tec used to make a Sub 2000 .40. I dont even know if they make them anymore, I know dealers stopped buying .40 Sub2000s, because.... nobody bought them. Dealers I know
were literally calling Kel Tec going "stop making these f***ing things in 40 and make them in 9 instead. Everyone wants the 9s, the 40s I have to give away and I lose my shirt on
them". That was a problem a DECADE ago nevermind now.

Same with the Beretta Storm 40. Those f***ing things just larded up dealer inventory with unsellable crap.

I think Hi Point still makes 40s but their customer base probably dovetails well with some of the 40 demographic.

Oh wait.... here comes a future HP customer now...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyiDVqywGM4


There are a half dozen other companies that make pistol caliber carbines, on the medium to high end. None of them are selling a .40

A lot has changed in the past decade. That reality does not include ".40 growing in popularity or considered a desireable chambering to buy a handgun in".



People only buying guns because theyre a good deal is not a great indicator of future success for a handgun chambering.

You contradict yourself. First, you claim that police are dumping the 40's, yet next you claim that S&W making .40 is for police. Which one is it?

Then you claim that police still use 45. Again, a contradiction to your earlier posts. I though police were all going to 9?

What's even more laughable is your claim that FN sells more 5.7x29 than 40 when they had them. What a laugh! What's more, 5.7 ammo is rare and extremely expensive, like the other lame calibers like 357 SIG or 10mm. Meanwhile, 40 is plentiful and cheap.

You also keep missing the real reason why manufacturers are not rushing to produce the 40s: the immense glut of used LE Glocks 22/23! I suppose it's the inconvenient truth.

What's even more indicative of 40's popularity, despite all the hate here, it's the second most common and inexpensive centerfire pistol caliber today! Quick perusal of local Cabelas proves it. Cost is a big factor here. here's a quick rundown of lowers ammo prices on AmmoSeek:

Caliber	Price per round	link
9 mm	23.7 c	9mm Luger Ammo In-stock best prices for 9mm Luger Ammo | Bulk 9mm Luger Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com
40 S&W	29.8 c	.40 S&W Ammo In-stock best prices for 40 S&W Ammo | Bulk 40 S&W Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com
45 ACP	40.0 c	.45 ACP/Auto Ammo In-stock best prices for 45 ACP/Auto Ammo | Bulk 45 ACP/Auto Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com
10 mm	56.8 c	10mm Auto Ammo In-stock best prices for 10mm Auto Ammo | Best 10mm Auto Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com
357 SIG	47.5 c	.357 SIG Ammo In-stock best prices for 357 SIG Ammo | Best 357 SIG Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com
5.7x29	75.0 c	5.7x28mm Ammo In-stock best prices for 5.7x28mm Ammo | Cheap 5.7x28mm Ammunition - AmmoSeek.com ammoseek.com

That's the reality for ya. No matter how much you wish for 40's demise, it continues to be popular.

Oh, and Kel-Tek still makes 40's Sub 2K's! They are very popular as EDC/truck guns and in 3-gun competitions.

 

[M1911]

I get it man... you don't like .40. But the barrier I was mainly referring to was a car door. Massad Ayoob says that if things go sideways, it is likely that you will have to defend yourself against assailants in vehicles, so he recommends everyone own an AR-10. It is unlikely that you will be standing directly in front of a vehicle. Thats how you get run over.
In Paul Harrell's comparison video, he pointed out better splits with 40 than 45 because it has less recoil. Jerry Miculek has pointed out on video that his personal carry gun is a .40, and Hickock 45 points out that the 40 "hits a lot harder" on his steel targets than 9mm.

I've taken LFI-1 and 2 from Ayoob, back when he was in NH, so I certainly do listen to what Ayoob says. But he's full of it on an AR-10. I own an AR-10. It's a big, heavy boat anchor, particularly for a little guy like Ayoob. It's got a lot more recoil than an AR-15 and both will reliably go through car doors and car windows. An AR-15 is more than enough power for anything we're likely to encounter. For a full-power semi-auto rifle, I find my M1A balances better than my AR-10, but of course it's a lot harder to mount a scope on an M1A.

As for Paul Harrell, the guy thinks that the best web gear made was the Alice harness he used in Desert Storm. He thinks that practicing transitions from an AR-15 to a handgun is stupid, because it takes too long to sling the AR (using his old, issued carry sling, not a modern adjustable sling that allows you to just let go of the AR during a transition). He thinks its OK to carry a gun in your pocket without a pocket holster and the way to carry a spare magazine is to stuff it in your pocket. The guy can certainly shoot and he can handle recoil well. He's also a big guy, with big, strong hands, and a truly enormous ego. But I long ago stopped listening to whatever he is blathering about, because he's convinced that firearms progress stopped about 30 years ago.

As you might imagine, I shot .45 ACP out of 1911s for a long time. I love the trigger, but got tired of the maintenance, and I just can't control the recoil of a 45 like I once could -- I'm over 60 and clearly I'm not getting any stronger. I then kept a Glock 23 for carry and home defense. I've still got it, but I've found that I shoot 9mm better and .40 is just plain uncomfortable. My splits are better with 9mm and I'm more accurate. It's my understanding that these days there is little real-world difference in terminal effects between quality JHP in 9mm, .40, and .45. As a result, I carry a 9mm these days. I've still got my Glock 23, but it hasn't been out of the safe in a long time. I've sold my other .40s and haven't missed them at all.

I do still have my Colt Delta Elite, because best millimeter, but I haven't shot that in ages either.

 

[M1911]

Not sure what the point is but it's very long though so... that's something.

I've been hearing about 40's demise for over a decade now. Same for 45's. Yet, S&W recently released their M&P 2.0. Guess what caliber it comes in? Considering that the only new guns released in the last 12 months from big manufacturers are the aforementioned S&W M&P 2.0, FN Hi-Power replica, and SIG P229(which is just an updated 226). I say, 40 is doing just fine in 2022. Actually, it's doing better than ever mainly due to the market being full of very inexpensive used Glock 22/23.

Go to a big gun store and ask them how may .40s they sell compared to 9mm. It's a drop in the bucket compared to what it used to be.

 

[kalash]

He thinks its OK to carry a gun in your pocket without a pocket holster ...

In some circumstances that certainly is an option.

 

[kalash]

I say, 40 is doing just fine in 2022.

There's literally no advantage to .40 for concealed carry. You think there is but that's because you don't understand wound ballistics and when they were explained to you up thread you conveniently ignored it.

Most of us here owned a .40 at one point and pretty much everyone got rid of them, myself included. Have fun defending one of the dumbest calibers out there, I guess.

 

[PappyM3]

You contradict yourself. First, you claim that police are dumping the 40's, yet next you claim that S&W making .40 is for police. Which one is it?

Then you claim that police still use 45. Again, a contradiction to your earlier posts. I though police were all going to 9?
…

LEAs are dumping .40 and most have also moved away from .45. But there are still some remaining, which is what he’s getting at. Even if most agencies no longer use .40, the small handful that do could still be lucrative to sell to. But those .40 agencies won’t last forever. When a new chief or purchasing guy comes in, they’re likely to switch.

.45 is a whole other thing like he said. That will likely be around for a LOT longer due to the 1911 and the fact that it is inherently accurate and has a pleasant pushing thoomp of a recoil even though it has more energy.

 

[drgrant]

You contradict yourself. First, you claim that police are dumping the 40's, yet next you claim that S&W making .40 is for police. Which one is it?

Keep spinning, my point was that SW did it to to appeal to certain agencies that were still running 40, among other things.

"Because SW makes a few .40s" That by itself doesn't mean that S&W thinks the caliber is going to have this great resurgence.

Then you claim that police still use 45. Again, a contradiction to your earlier posts. I though police were all going to 9?

Never said that, but again you don't know how to read. I stated they were going to 9 and 45. Which is true. Tons of agencies have either
transited to one or the other. Because they figured out that 40 is basically dog shit.

What's even more laughable is your claim that FN sells more 5.7x29 than 40 when they had them. What a laugh!

It's not, even before those guns were gone I would still bet that most shops sold more 5.7 than they did 40 branded FN
guns. "Selling lots of new 40s" is not a thing that has happened in gun shops in YEARS.

Ask anyone who sells guns for a living and they will tell you the same thing. I know gun shop owners that don't even
buy .40s unless someone special orders them.

What's more, 5.7 ammo is rare and extremely expensive, like the other lame calibers like 357 SIG or 10mm. Meanwhile, 40 is plentiful and cheap.

I never made any claims about the rarity of the ammunition, just the sales of new .40 S&W guns.

The ammunition will be around forever because the installed base is huge. There are plenty of "walking dead" chamberings like that.

For example .30-06 is still made in great quantity because despite the fact that people rarely buy guns in it anymore, there are a ton of them in existence, from bolt
action rifles to M1 Garands.

None of that means that 40 is "gaining" any ground in the market. It's slowly dying on the vine, but you refuse to admit it.

You also keep missing the real reason why manufacturers are not rushing to produce the 40s: the immense glut of used LE Glocks 22/23! I suppose it's the inconvenient truth.

Lol not everyone wants glocks. Especially not someones old clapped out shit with someone elses hair and donut juice in it. And only a fraction of the market even buys used guns.

That's the reality for ya. No matter how much you wish for 40's demise, it continues to be popular.

I never made any claims they were going to stop selling ammo, rather the contrary. 40 will be around forever because the number of guns in circulation.

That doesn't mean its "increasing" though. If anything the fact that 40 ammo hung around a lot longer during covid tells me.... people aren't buying guns in 40 or shooting them
as much. A lot of 40s exist as dupes in some .40 acolytes gun safe. This was happening 10 yrs ago nevermind now.

Bottom line- if you were to map out new gun sales by caliber, .40 would be somewhere near the bottom of the list as a % of all sales. That you can take to
the bank. Even .380 ACP is easily more popular.

The only stuff .40 still beats in sales is stuff like 22 WMR etc. It still beats 10mm or 357 sig in gun and ammo volume, but not by a whole hell of a
lot. It's like claiming you "trounced" someone in a car race when you crossed the finish line just 2 feet ahead of them.

Oh, and Kel-Tek still makes 40's Sub 2K's! They are very popular as EDC/truck guns and in 3-gun competitions.

110% garbage.

I've sold tons of Sub2Ks to people. Maybe one of them was a .40, and it certainly wasn't new.

Nobody buys or wants the .40s anymore.

Even 10 years ago when I did a stint at another shop nobody bought those f***ing things.

They were an albatross that consumed shelf space. Every dealer hates .40 PCCs because nobody buys the f***ing things. Then they have to mark them way down just to get
rid of them. Only the weird .40 pseudo-skinflint (I call them pseudo because if they were legit skinflints, theyd never be shooting 40) people will buy them and only at a reduced price, if at all.

Hell even at this point.... even with the Window Lickers (TM) its easier for me to sell a Hi Point 10mm Carbine than it is the 40.

There's no upsell factor to .40 anymore. Unless you find the person that already owns them.

 

[PappyM3]

I will say that I think COVID saved the .40 a little. When all the 9mm and .45 were bought, the shelves were bare with nothing left but .40 guns and ammo. These new gun owners looking for a gun end up with .40. as their only gun and will need ammo for it. Unlike before when those .40s would end up being bought cheaply after sitting for a while just because some guy figures it doesn’t hurt to get a gun in another caliber and then it just sits in his safe. Who knows though, just kind of thinking of possibilities.

 

[drgrant]

I will say that I think COVID saved the .40 a little. When all the 9mm and .45 were bought, the shelves were bare with nothing left but .40 guns and ammo. These new gun owners looking for a gun end up with .40. as their only gun and will need ammo for it. Unlike before when those .40s would end up being bought cheaply after sitting for a while just because some guy figures it doesn’t hurt to get a gun in another caliber and then it just sits in his safe. Who knows though, just kind of thinking of possibilities.

When things got tough at the beginning of 2020 all the guns sold regardless of caliber.

Even during that period, most .40 sales were to ".40 people". They viewed the covid thing as an easy excuse to pick up another 40.

Most newbies still punted on 40 unless they were one of the "ultra edgy panicky people at the gun store with 3 guns left in stock" in mar-july of 2020. (this was f***ing INSANE, they all came out). After that period, newbs didnt buy them at all.

Mind you, manufacturers over the past decade had ramped production of .40 S&W handguns way down, so there were less guns sitting around in the sales channel than
one would think existed. So it wasnt that hard to drain. Even during peak covid new .40s became DIFFICULT to get. This is because manufacturers simply werent making or prioritizing them. the evidence sort of showed how dismal the caliber had become, that even the previously otherwise over-flooded with product channel that was filled with tons of other guns, didnt have a lot of 40s in it.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

When things got tough at the beginning of 2020 all the guns sold regardless of caliber.

Even during that period, most .40 sales were to ".40 people". They viewed the covid thing as an easy excuse to pick up another 40.

Most newbies still punted on 40 unless they were one of the "ultra edgy panicky people at the gun store with 3 guns left in stock" in mar-july of 2020. (this was f***ing INSANE, they all came out). After that period, newbs didnt buy them at all.

Mind you, manufacturers over the past decade had ramped production of .40 S&W handguns way down, so there were less guns sitting around in the sales channel than
one would think existed. So it wasnt that hard to drain. Even during peak covid new .40s became DIFFICULT to get. This is because manufacturers simply werent making or prioritizing them. the evidence sort of showed how dismal the caliber had become, that even the previously otherwise over-flooded with product channel that was filled with tons of other guns, didnt have a lot of 40s in it.

You missed the third kind of person buying a .40 during the pandemic: The 9mm person who thought they might need the extra .40 PAWAR! for TP hording missions at Costco.

 

[M1911]

In some circumstances that certainly is an option.

It's generally a bad option. Pocket holsters 1) keep the gun pointed in the correct direction so that when you stick your hand in your pocket you can easily grab the grip, 2) cover the trigger guard, preventing the trigger from being pulled until you draw the gun, and 3) prevent pocket lint from getting into the action.

 

[kalash]

It's generally a bad option. Pocket holsters 1) keep the gun pointed in the correct direction so that when you stick your hand in your pocket you can easily grab the grip, 2) cover the trigger guard, preventing the trigger from being pulled until you draw the gun, and 3) prevent pocket lint from getting into the action.

I'm well aware of all of that. However, carrying, say, a snubnose revolver with a long heavy DAO trigger without a holster is perfectly safe. Your other two points still hold true but for a quick trip to the mailbox or to walk the dog in the winter, it's great to be able to safely slip that gun into a jacket pocket. I pocket carry a lot and I don't have a holster maybe 1% of the time, so I think we're generally in agreement here; I'm just pointing out that sometimes going without a holster is logical and acceptable but only in limited circumstances.

 

[M1911]

I'm well aware of all of that. However, carrying, say, a snubnose revolver with a long heavy DAO trigger without a holster is perfectly safe. Your other two points still hold true but for a quick trip to the mailbox or to walk the dog in the winter, it's great to be able to safely slip that gun into a jacket pocket. I pocket carry a lot and I don't have a holster maybe 1% of the time, so I think we're generally in agreement here; I'm just pointing out that sometimes going without a holster is logical and acceptable but only in limited circumstances.

I've carried a snubnose revolver in a pocket. I ALWAYS used a pocket holster. I still would not be comfortable putting a revolver in a jacket pocket without a pocket holster. I don't think a heavy trigger is a suitable substitute for a holster that covers the trigger guard.

That said, I've seen Harrell put numerous semi-autos, including Glocks, in his jacket pocket. His view of safety is very different from mine.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

In perhaps a futile effort to get away from the perpetual ".40 threat or menace" debate, any love for Winchester Ranger Bonded or Ranger-T in 9mm?

 

[M1911]

Isn't Ranger-T basically the old Talon design, but with a more legally defensible name?

My impression is that Ranger-T is good to go. I typically use HST.

 

[cdynak]

Holy shit! I didn't mean to poke the hornet's nest.

 

[M1911]

That's what we do best. Try Glock versus P320 next.

 

[ware]

Whatever you can buy in bulk to train with is the beat bet.

 

[chris_1001]

Isn't Ranger-T basically the old Talon design, but with a more legally defensible name?

My impression is that Ranger-T is good to go. I typically use HST.

Ranger SXT (same exact thing).

 

[drgrant]

Ranger SXT (same exact thing).

it’s not, though. be careful. Ranger-T and Ranger SXT are generally two different things with the latter usually using a shit bullet.

 

[chris_1001]

My understanding was the FBI said 9mm was not good enough (after the Miami shooting). They went right up to 10mm.

The agents mostly pee’d themselves every time they pulled the trigger. So the came up with the .40 (10mm short) and that still did not work for them. Not sure if it was recoil still, or something else.

Now they are unapologetically back to 9mm

I’m fine with 9mm. .38, .40, 10mm. .44 mag etc.

If I hit you in the toe with any you will live. If I get you center mass, it will suck for you.

Pick a cal. Practice and try to hit center mass and not a toe.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

For me personally, I go with a cheaper hollow point so I can practice with it and ensure it functions flawlessly in my guns. At 55 cents, that's pretty good considering the times we're in. I like that it's subsonic to somewhat reduce damage on your ears. I would buy a half case of those and start testing.

I thought you were an MD

 

[drgrant]

In perhaps a futile effort to get away from the perpetual ".40 threat or menace" debate, any love for Winchester Ranger Bonded or Ranger-T in 9mm?

RA9TA addict here. I usually only save that stuff for certain guns. Underwood gdhp 124, +p+, Hornady CD 135+P, HST 124+P, Speer 124+p, Fed 9PBLE rarely. (aka dat pibble) . All decent, although pibble is a bit dated. Diff loads for different guns though. I don't use the +P+ in tiny guns.

 

[chris_1001]

As an aside. I took the range master class a few years ago in NH.

Tom said and I quote “9mm pokes holes” and was basically saying fight with a rifle.

And I’m sure there were many NES Guys shooting with me.

This was set up by the now defunct NEShooters in place of the usual summit.

Tom Givens

Tom Givens Owner, Founder, and Lead Trainer After completing a 25-year career in law enforcement and specialized security work, Tom opened his own pistol range in Memphis, TN in 1996. For 18 …

rangemaster.com

 

[M1911]

My understanding was the FBI said 9mm was not good enough (after the Miami shooting). They went right up to 10mm.

The agents mostly pee’d themselves every time they pulled the trigger. So the came up with the .40 (10mm short) and that still did not work for them. Not sure if it was recoil still, or something else.

Now they are unapologetically back to 9mm

I’m fine with 9mm. .38, .40, 10mm. .44 mag etc.

If I hit you in the toe with any you will live. If I get you center mass, it will suck for you.

Pick a cal. Practice and try to hit center mass and not a toe.

Today’s 9mm bullets are far better than the Silvertips used in the Miami Shootout 40+ years ago.

 

[chris_1001]

Today’s 9mm bullets are far better than the Silvertips used in the Miami Shootout 40+ years ago.

I took a nes shooters summit class on that shooting. Lots of screwups by the fbi (least of all caliber) And after the class you felt like you should carry a .45. So that said. Both were issues.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Tom said and I quote “9mm pokes holes” and was basically saying fight with a rifle.

He's not alone

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l9nGB8cK1HM