Why are so many Glocks in play?

[PaulD]

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1071872

Like I said, I'd like to get a good look at one and see the nature of the rust on the slide. Blurry phonecam pics don't really do the job.

FWIW, my PM9 has spent plenty of time in my sweaty pocket with no signs of rust whatsoever. So, Glock isn't the only rust free option.

 

[PaulD]

All this silliness would end if people would just man up and buy a Heckler and Koch.... Besides, everyone knows a 1911 is better than a Glock anyway...

I have to say, my HK45 has made me see the light.

 

[Youradolt]

As far as I am concern Glock is the most sucessful Polymer Pistol on the market and has inspired other companys to copy the design due to the popularity of Glock. S&W was sued because the sigma was almost a complete copy of the glock. I got a few question for you M&P guys

1. What model is the M&P full auto?
2. Where can I buy 33 round mags for the m&p 9mm?
3. Where can I buy compensated model?
4. Do they make a M&P in 10mm?
5. Can I buy a M&P sub-compact? There 9c is more like a G19
6. What about a High cap .45?

 

[PaulD]

As far as I am concern Glock is the most sucessful Polymer Pistol on the market and has inspired other companys to copy the design due to the popularity of Glock. S&W was sued because the sigma was almost a complete copy of the glock. I got a few question for you M&P guys

1. What model is the M&P full auto?
2. Where can I buy 33 round mags for the m&p 9mm?
3. Where can I buy compensated model?
4. Do they make a M&P in 10mm?
5. Can I buy a M&P sub-compact? There 9c is more like a G19
6. What about a High cap .45?

I'm not an "M&P guy", sold the one I had. Come to think of it, I sold the Glock I had too.

However, your logic is like saying Porsche sucks because they don't make a pickup truck. And, btw, where's the Glock wheelgun, or semi-auto rifle, or shotgun, or .22. S&W makes all of those.

 

[Youradolt]

I only own one glock so im not some fanboy and glock sticks to what they are good at polymer pistols they have no need to make anything else The only reason the m&p is loved so much if cause it is one of a few decent polymer pistol that can be sold new in ma. not to mention its still fairly new to the market If the XD got aproved for Ma sale tomorrow you could beat It would be the best thing since sliced bread in this state

 

[Titan]

I only own one glock so im not some fanboy and glock sticks to what they are good at polymer pistols they have no need to make anything else The only reason the m&p is loved so much if cause it is one of a few decent polymer pistol that can be sold new in ma. not to mention its still fairly new to the market If the XD got aproved for Ma sale tomorrow you could beat It would be the best thing since sliced bread in this state

So an M&P has few redeeming virtues outside MA to warrant a purchase on its merits, eh?

Waht do you attribute all the LEO contracts to?

Speaking for myself, I have no desire to own and XD. I try whenever possible to select American made over Croatian made, all things being equal.

 

[Mark from MA]

any full hoodie wearing moronic whiteboy shooting like that is limp wristing so badly he could jam up the oil well in the Gulf of Mexico just by throwing wannabe gang signs at it.

Didn't want to go there but, FTF was the reason why I sold my M&P 40c (at a loss) for a Glock 27. G27 is also smaller and hasn't FTF'ed yet in 500 rounds.

 

[pdm]

any full hoodie wearing moronic whiteboy shooting like that is limp wristing so badly he could jam up the oil well in the Gulf of Mexico just by throwing wannabe gang signs at it.

Comedy Black Gold.

 

[Youradolt]

Give the m&p another 10 years and there will just as many in play as glocks

 

[GSG]

as far as the m&p goes who wants to own a full size gun with only a 10 round mag

Aside from my total satisfaction with Glock pistols, this was the #1 reason I didn't look into many other pistols when I lived in MA: forced to stick with intentionally crippled mags.

My M&Ps don't feel like I'm holding a brick, and I can't recall every reading an article on an M&P negligent discharge or expolosion.

I've see glock come apart a lot faster than that.

and have seen the jam up just as much as other guns

A good number of Glock kb's involve competition shooters, which almost always means reloaded ammo and altered guns, including but not limited to lightened recoil springs that let the gun fire out of battery. A few more of them involve know nothing cops shooting off their old ammo in qualification with set back issues, or a bad bunch of ammo made by Federal. Take those issues out of the mix and Glock kb's just as rarely as any other manufacturer.

Not sure about the M+Ps (in relative terms) but I know for a fact that Glock and HK have traditionally beaten the others beaten hands down, in terms of corrosion resistance on their slides.

Now, if you're one of those folks with the interesting sweat chemistry, all bets are off. (I've met two people who have told me whatever is in their sweat/perspiration causes guns to rust, and I believe them.....).

I'm one of those "body loves destroying gun metal" types, so is my dad, although his skin isn't as bad about it as mine is. And for me it's not just sweat, it's the oils in my skin alone that make guns & knives rust; by simply touching or brushing against countless types & brands of guns I've put rust on them, stainless, parkerized, blued (I won't even handle blued guns anymore without rubber gloves on, including guns with blued mags ), and yes, I've even put rust on Glocks, although it's only ever been on small parts after intense amounts of sweating on them. I've never put rust on a 2nd gen Glock, even with lots of sweaty carry and handling, but to date I've put rust on two 3rd gen Glocks. I've never put a spot of rust on any Glock slide or barrel, however.

I've found a few types of guns and finishes that I can own & handle without daily corrosion problems, but Glock is definitely the most rust resistant pistol I've ever encountered. M&P could be as resistant to my body as Glocks are , but unless I get one for free so that I can test it myself to see how it holds up against rust while being a good performer in all areas, it's not worth the lost money and aggravation to me to find out.

So an M&P has few redeeming virtues outside MA to warrant a purchase on its merits, eh?

Waht do you attribute all the LEO contracts to?

LEO contracts aren't based on quality, they're based on a number of factors, like price (including trade in value of current issued guns, and S&W is giving great trade in deals currently to get an edge on the LE market), department need, use of force insurance policy standards, training concerns, availability of armorers/service, weight of the gun on the duty belt, availability of duty holsters/gear for the model, ability of different sized and shaped staff to use them...then there's the various intangibles like the chief who negligently shot off his middle finger and now requires that every gun issued to his dept. have an external safety , the people in charge of procurement's lack of knowledge/confusion about firearms issues, impulsive decisions based on looks, reputation, cool factor or internet rumor...the list is very long, but it's not simply based on the quality of the gun itself, since agencies need a network of accessories and services for their weapons and gear.

IMO if S&W can find a way to make their pistols cheaper than Glocks, equally durable and reliable as Glocks, chambered in all the calibers commonly used by LE agencies nation wide like Glocks are, more user comfort than found with Glocks (grip, feel, function, etc.), armorer availability & ease of training comparable to Glocks, with fantastic, hasty customer service, somehow get all the holster manufacturers to make a wide variety of duty & concealment holsters aimed at meeting LE needs the way they do for Glock, and then somehow foster the reputation that Glock has had with armed professionals worldwide for the past two decades, then they'll find a way to be the handgun in use by more than 2/3's of the cops in the US like Glock is.

Yes I'm aware that S&W has done or is trying to do some of those things, but they definitely don't do them all, and even if they started doing them all tomorrow, they'd need to do it for several years to truly compete with Glock. Although I personally think that the Glock is a better all around fighting pistol than the M&P is, I think that Glock meets the requirements of most LE agencies better than S&W does with their M&P.

I try whenever possible to select American made over Croatian made, all things being equal.

All things being equal, I too prefer American made.

 

[Titan]

GSG,

Remember that the question posed by the OP is why are there so many used Glocks showing up in the market.

My answer was that, in part, I think it's due to LEO wins by S&W. Sure there are lots of variables in the decision making, but the fact is that S&W is winning competitions for selection. Unless you think corruption is involved or the rules have changed, then these wins are just as significant as all the wins by Glock. Certainly at least one of the factors is the gun itself, in either case. I think the biggest factors in recent S&W wins are M&P ergonomics, warranty/customer service, and performance in trials.

I think LEO wins are a pretty fair explanation for one of the factors behind what appears to be a glut of used Glocks. Another factor, of course, is the simple volume of Glocks in the market, and normal trades for new guns.

 

[cekim]

GSG,

Remember that the question posed by the OP is why are there so many used Glocks showing up in the market.

My answer was that, in part, I think it's due to LEO wins by S&W. Sure there are lots of variables in the decision making, but the fact is that S&W is winning competitions for selection. Unless you think corruption is involved or the rules have changed, then these wins are just as significant as all the wins by Glock. Certainly at least one of the factors is the gun itself, in either case. I think the biggest factors in recent S&W wins are M&P ergonomics, warranty/customer service, and performance in trials.

I think LEO wins are a pretty fair explanation for one of the factors behind what appears to be a glut of used Glocks. Another factor, of course, is the simple volume of Glocks in the market, and normal trades for new guns.

I think I've said this before - I don't think you should read too much into quality from these moves other than that both M&P and glock are good guns.

There doesn't need to be 'corruption' for a decision to be 'political' or cosmetic. Police departments are populated by 'people' which means they behave like every other group of people in that some departments lead and some follow. There will be departments that switch because they are getting a good deal and there will be those that switch because X switched and "they must know something". There will be departments that switch because the Chief is unhappy about a a gun he had 10 years ago...

They are just people - not oracles of truth.

 

[Pilgrim]

What do real men use?

 

[Titan]

I think I've said this before - I don't think you should read too much into quality from these moves other than that both M&P and glock are good guns.

There doesn't need to be 'corruption' for a decision to be 'political' or cosmetic. Police departments are populated by 'people' which means they behave like every other group of people in that some departments lead and some follow. There will be departments that switch because they are getting a good deal and there will be those that switch because X switched and "they must know something". There will be departments that switch because the Chief is unhappy about a a gun he had 10 years ago...

They are just people - not oracles of truth.

I think the fairly obvious truth is that no LEO organization would buy an inferior product (sure one might, under sever political constraints, but unlikely). I think it's fairly safe to safe that both the Glock and the M&P are sufficient to the LEO needs, well enough made, and reliable enough, to function as required, and not put LEO lives at risk.

As I said, I wouldn't argue that other variable don't come into play.

Again, my intent was not to bash Glocks, but to help answer the question of why there appears to be a 'glut' of used Glocks on the market, now vs historical levels.

The simple suggestion is that S&W IS winning lots of contracts and causing Glocks to enter the used market. In making my point, I commented on a lot of the conventional wisdom regarding Glock issues that might contribute to a switch (failures of Glock 40s, and less than ideal ergonomics).

 

[cekim]

|---------| <- This.... Is not 6 inches...

At least get some SD ammo in that picture.

 

[GSG]

I think the fairly obvious truth is that no LEO organization would buy an inferior product (sure one might, under sever political constraints, but unlikely).

Quality of equipment is a big issue, and one that's frequently overlooked. There are LE agencies today, in May of 2010, who only issue cops a firearm, radio and handcuffs. Others issue crappy/worn out/outdated guns and gear. I get what you're saying, and you're right, obviously if the M&P line is having some success than it has some great qualities, but there are many other factors that go into such decisions.

Again, my intent was not to bash Glocks, but to help answer the question of why there appears to be a 'glut' of used Glocks on the market, now vs historical levels.

Ah yes, the joys of thread drift.

 

[drgrant]

|---------| <- This.... Is not 6 inches...

At least get some SD ammo in that picture.

You must have missed the memo- didn't you know that an M1911 shooting ball ammo makes "holes big enough to toss a cat through" and also can shoot airplanes out of the sky?

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

The simple suggestion is that S&W IS winning lots of contracts and causing Glocks to enter the used market. In making my point, I commented on a lot of the conventional wisdom regarding Glock issues that might contribute to a switch (failures of Glock 40s, and less than ideal ergonomics).

It's a bit too simplistic, considering that a lot of things can cause (any brand) of pistol to increase in the secondary market... including replacements of that pistol with another one of the same brand. Hell, there were lots of Glocks available back before the M+P even existed, too. (If you don't believe me, then you probably don't get CDNN catalogs in the mail. )

-Mike

 

[GSG]

You must have missed the memo- didn't you know that an M1911 shooting ball ammo makes "holes big enough to toss a cat through" and also can shoot airplanes out of the sky?

.45 ball can make some pretty big holes, but in the real world there's almost no difference in performance between the common handgun calibers.

That's why I carry an FN 5.7 pistol...

 

[Skald]

.45 ball can make some pretty big holes, but in the real world there's almost no difference in performance between the common handgun calibers.

That's why I carry an FN 5.7 pistol...

From Jeff, SWAT officer, and former Marine:

I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.

Given the quality of modern SD loads, it now comes down to shot placement above anything else.

 

[GSG]

Given the quality of modern SD loads, it now comes down to shot placement above anything else.

I was joking about the 5.7, I know drgrant has a black hole in his heart reserved for those pistols so I was poking fun at him. If I wanted a pistol round that performed like a .22 Mag, I'd just pick up a KelTec PMR-30; the same plastic pistol with the same performance at a much lower cost.

But I honestly think that a huge reason for the major calibers all performing the same is because they've been developed to meet the same standards, and because the ammo companies allow them to perform similarly to help in sales of all calibers across the board.

 

[Titan]

It's a bit too simplistic, considering that a lot of things can cause (any brand) of pistol to increase in the secondary market... including replacements of that pistol with another one of the same brand. Hell, there were lots of Glocks available back before the M+P even existed, too. (If you don't believe me, then you probably don't get CDNN catalogs in the mail. )

-Mike

I wasn't claiming it was the ONLY factor, simply suggesting it was one of the possible factors.

 

[MassMark]

The factor no one is considering is the one where people wake up one day and realize what they've done....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Back to reality . . .

If money wasn't an issue, PDs would like to replace all their firearms on a 10 year rotation. This puts a lot of used LE firearms in play for the retail market.

It was ~5 years ago when G17s and G22s from PD turn-ins were a glut on the market. Then they dried up, now they are coming back again (must be the Fed "stimulus" money).

That's my explanation of why you see so many Glocks on the used market.

 

[ShadeWPI]

I was joking about the 5.7, I know drgrant has a black hole in his heart reserved for those pistols so I was poking fun at him. If I wanted a pistol round that performed like a .22 Mag, I'd just pick up a KelTec PMR-30; the same plastic pistol with the same performance at a much lower cost.

Personally, I'd like a Five-Seven pistol, just not willing to spend what they're charging for it. A standard pistol with a 20rd capacity (since I live in NH and can have 20rd mags) with high penetration would be really nice. It wouldn't be my carry pistol, but I'd still really like one.

But I honestly think that a huge reason for the major calibers all performing the same is because they've been developed to meet the same standards, and because the ammo companies allow them to perform similarly to help in sales of all calibers across the board.

Actually, I think the performance of the major auto-pistol calibers are all extremely similar because of the limitations of the ergonomics of a modern auto-loader. The form and function of an auto-pistol dictates a small case, short barrel and limited recoil impulse. Energy Output differrence between a +P 9mm (about 400 ft-lbs) and a factory 10mm (about 600 ft-lbs) is only 25%. That is not sufficient to make up for anything more than marginal shot-placement.. Increasing this significantly would require significantly altering the ergonomics of the handgun:

Moving the cartriages out of the grip, lengthening the barrel or increasing the recoil impulse would allow increased effectiveness, but you'd lose the value of the handgun by altering its ergonomics.
I think you'd find it hard to claim that everyone who survived a shot from a 9mm would have survived a similarly placed shot from a large hunting revolver (.44Mag, .454Cascull, .460 S&W or .500 S&W Mag) but these rounds dont allow for the ergonomics of an auto-pistol (No, a Desert Eagle does not have conventional auto-pistol ergonomics) but these hunting revolvers have muzzle energies that are 2-4x the energy of a 9mm.

 

[WillyJP]

Very true. I was a .45 chauvinist for many years until I started to actually examine ballistic figures for modern +p 9mm SD loads. Shot placement with any self defense handgun round is the key.

From Jeff, SWAT officer, and former Marine:



Given the quality of modern SD loads, it now comes down to shot placement above anything else.

 

[Skald]

Very true. I was a .45 chauvinist for many years until I started to actually examine ballistic figures for modern +p 9mm SD loads. Shot placement with any self defense handgun round is the key.

I was too til I too started to read about the modern SD ammo. And if I was restricted to ball ammo only, then I'd def. carry a .45ACP. Otherwise, given the vast improvement of 9mm SD loads, be foolish to handicap yourself for 7+1 and then 1-3 spare mags. Right now I carry 17+1 just in the firearm. I shocked the hell out of my friend who is a HUGE 45 ACP man. Finally sat him down and bet him a case of beer that what he thought 9mm in terms of terminal ballistics is no longer the case. His words 'so now try and tell me a reason to be stuck with 22 total rounds on me when I can be carrying 17+1 in the gun to go, then up to an additional 34?

 

[GSG]

I was too til I too started to read about the modern SD ammo. And if I was restricted to ball ammo only, then I'd def. carry a .45ACP. Otherwise, given the vast improvement of 9mm SD loads, be foolish to handicap yourself for 7+1 and then 1-3 spare mags. Right now I carry 17+1 just in the firearm. I shocked the hell out of my friend who is a HUGE 45 ACP man. Finally sat him down and bet him a case of beer that what he thought 9mm in terms of terminal ballistics is no longer the case. His words 'so now try and tell me a reason to be stuck with 22 total rounds on me when I can be carrying 17+1 in the gun to go, then up to an additional 34?

Spare mags are a must for an autoloader. Especially in Florida where high cap mags grow on trees.

 

[pdm]

"Two is one, one is none." or however the saying goes.

 

[Skald]

Spare mags are a must for an autoloader. Especially in Florida where high cap mags grow on trees.

You h ave no idea. It is nice, need to pick up some ammo to find which one mine loves to eat. I am actually looking at 147gr +P and the 147gr +P+