Why does the M&P 9 shoot high?

[rutilate]

This target shows the shots from an M&P 9 from 25 yards. It is shooting quite high.



To remove (most) operator error, an M&P .45 (with aftermarket night sights) was fired from the same distance, showing that the problem is more likely to be with the M&P 9 than the operator:


The horizontal adjustment is easy. The vertical is hard. To the best of my knowledge the M&P 9 has the original white-dot sights. How does one go about fixing the height? I have heard of low-profile sights--how do you determine whether this has/needs the low-profile sights? Better yet, would Truglo or Meprolight night sights be a more appropriate height?

 

[xtry51]

Are you 100% sure you're not pushing on the grip when firing? My shoots spot on, so it's not a trait of the model.

 

[rutilate]

Are you 100% sure you're not pushing on the grip when firing? My shoots spot on, so it's not a trait of the model.

I'm 100% sure of nothing. However, I asked myself the same question. If anything, the tendency is to flinch down and left, not up. To limit operator error, the M&P .45 target showed a more accurate sight pattern.

 

[white feather]

Shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. It will print lower as it leaves the barrel faster and the gun has risen less in recoil.
White Feather

 

[mac1911]

I have trouple shooting pistols in general. Have you tried shooting off a rest.
Is this a full size Mp 9? At what distance does Smith and Wesson zero the pistol for? Lets say they zero it to 7 yards to be point of aim = points of impact. Would this cause point of impact vs point of aim to go higher @ 25 yards?
Ammo used?
You would need a taller front sight(taller sight to lower shot group) to bring poa=poi @ 25 yards. Then that would cause your pistol to shoot low at short yardage.

 

[Bonesinium]

What are the results at a closer distance?

 

[Snowboarder2012]

I shoot both the M&P 9mm full size & the 9mm Compact, both had carry trigger jobs done by Business End Customs and both have their factory sights with no sight adjustment at all. I can shoot pretty tight groups, dead nuts in the middle of a 10" splat target around 30-40' out. I never practice shooting drills any further as I save that for the AR. If you're shooting with a stock trigger, do a trigger job or head to Business End Customs and get it done, you won't regret it. S&W triggers are some of the grittiest, jerky triggers out there! Good luck!

-Dan

 

[xtry51]

M&Ps are zeroed at 10yards, so I'd expect it to be 1-2inch high at 25 yards. Your target is showing higher than that, so my guess would be you're pushing on the heal of your hand.

Try dry firing and having someone balance a shell on your front sight post. If you can't pull the trigger and have the shell stay there, dry fire every day for a week and try again. It's tough to know anything about what's going on until you have confidence in your ability.

Also, 25 yards is a good ways off. So you need to have some sort of reasonable goal in mind. 1 hole ain't gonna happen at that distance.

Your grouping isn't that big for 25yards. Also, just to be sure, we're actually talking about YARDS and not FEET, correct? I only ask because it wouldn't be the first time someone posted asking this question and meant feet.

 

[rutilate]

Shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity. It will print lower as it leaves the barrel faster and the gun has risen less in recoil.
White Feather

That's an interesting idea. This is a 115gr plated Montana Gold bullet with 6.5 grains Power Pistol, ~1215 FPS @ 40degrees. That's fairly fast, as it is producing a power factor of 145, right?

I have trouple shooting pistols in general. Have you tried shooting off a rest.
Is this a full size Mp 9? At what distance does Smith and Wesson zero the pistol for? Lets say they zero it to be point of aim = points of impact. Would this cause point of impact vs point of aim to go higher?

I'm not sure. I've found conflicting information. One post on S&W forums says 10 yds, another says 25 yards.

M&Ps are zeroed at 10yards, so I'd expect it to be 1-2inch high at 25 yards. Your target is showing higher than that, so my guess would be you're pushing on the heal of your hand.

Ok, so 10 yards. But wouldn't point of impact be lower than point of aim the further away from zero?

Try dry firing and having someone balance a shell on your front sight post. If you can't pull the trigger and have the shell stay there, dry fire every day for a week and try again. It's tough to know anything about what's going on until you have confidence in your ability.

That was the point of shooting the M&P 45, which appears to be properly sighted with most in the black. There is clearly room for improvement, but if it is all attributable to flinch then it would have been consistent across guns.

Your grouping isn't that big for 25yards. Also, just to be sure, we're actually talking about YARDS and not FEET, correct? I only ask because it wouldn't be the first time someone posted asking this question and meant feet.

Yes, it is actually closer to 27 YARDS.

 

[xtry51]

I'm not sure. I've found conflicting information. One post on S&W forums says 10 yds, another says 25 yards. If it were 10 yards, wouldn't point of impact be lower than point of aim out at 25 yards?

It's 10yds. And no for lower at 25yds because the bullet is still going up. The next zero point is about 50yds. 100yds is about 8" low for 115gr.

 

[rutilate]

It's 10yds. And no for lower at 25yds because the bullet is still going up. The next zero point is about 50yds. 100yds is about 8" low for 115gr.

I'm not following. If like a rifle, the zero is the point at which the bullet rises to its apex and falls to the point of aim, then moving closer would cause the bullet to strike higher on the target than point of aim, and as you moved away from the target the point of impact falls lower than point of aim. Is a pistol bullet trajectory different?

 

[xtry51]

I'm not following. If like a rifle, the zero is the point at which the bullet rises to its apex and falls to the point of aim, then moving closer would cause the bullet to strike higher on the target than point of aim, and as you moved away from the target the point of impact falls lower than point of aim. Is a pistol bullet trajectory different?

Your second sentence is wrong.

Example. My AR is zeroed at 50yds. There is a second zero at 210yds. There are two "zeroes" for a bullet path (arc) one on way up and one on way down.

There is technically a single distance for every bullet/gun combination where you are at the apex, but it's not common to use that location.

 

[ski patrol]

Is the gun brand new?

 

[rutilate]

Your second sentence is wrong.

Example. My AR is zeroed at 50yds. There is a second zero at 210yds. Ther are two "zeroes" for a bullet path (arc) one on way up and one on way down.

So it is 2 points on the parabola. I was under the impression that only the second point mattered, as that is the only one shown in all the diagrams.

Is the gun brand new?

No, it is a few years old and quite dirty!

 

[xtry51]

 

[xtry51]

So it is 2 points on the parabola. I was under the impression that only the second point mattered, as that is the only one shown in all the diagrams.

No, it is a few years old and quite dirty!

Whether the first or second point matters depends entirely on the specifics of the firearm and ammo being discussed. Some people will say "My AR is zeroed at 200yds" and others "at 50yds" not realizing they are the same.

9mm drop at 200yds is about 4ft BTW

 

[Bonesinium]

Weather the first or second point matters depends entirely on the specifics of the firearm and ammo being discussed. Some people will say "My AR is zeroed at 200yds" and others "at 50yds" not realizing they are the same.

9mm drop at 200yds is about 4ft BTW

Well, the weather does matter, as various weather factors do have an effect, things like wind, pressure, etc. Whether or not this is what you mean is a different story.

 

[xtry51]

Ooh, good call. Apparently it's time to think about sleeping

 

[white feather]

You are right, if 1215 fps is correct, it is pretty fast so you won't get much lower for faster. If I were to guess, I think three factors might be in play. Trigger finger reaching for trigger and pushing left. Riding the recoil, for high left. Focus not fixed on front sight for high in general. Don't have the gun and obviously not recommended for night sights but "sight black" spray was great (disclaimer: this was true in the 1850s when I started shooting) for covering those damn red ramp, white outline S&W sights for target use.
White Feather

 

[mac1911]

I shoot more pellets than a anything! LOL my 22. Cal pellet guns are zero at 27 yards this puts me with in 1" or so from poa from 10 yards to about 35-37 yards.
So there must be a "common " zero for pistol for a set distance you might be shooting at.......those who shoot pistol competition must have a. Pertain distance you sight your fixed sighted pistols at to get the best possible chance of a bit from x to z yards....no?

 

[oilspill]

Earlier M&P9's are known to have accuracy issues:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=1272
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=159

 

[SJan]

Get a box of factory ammo. Any kind. I bet it groups at POA.