Wilson Combat

[Ericman]

Now, I have never owned or handeled a 1911 yet. I am not yet of legal age to use handguns (FID card holder here). But I do read alot, and the aesthetics of venerable 1911 have always tickled my fancy. So I am posting this just to learn.

I know the quality of 1911s vary, this is usually obvious due to price. I noticed the two higher end brands are Smith and Wesson and Wilson Combat.

Are these 4 thousand dollars Wilsons substantially higher quality in terms of accuracy and reliability than say S&W and Colt? If so, your life is priceless so I would not critisize a man who spend 4 grand on a pistol for concealed carry. In whay ways are they better? Is it true everything from the magazine, to the sights, the barrel are all custom and high grade?

 

[LORD of WAR]

I noticed the two higher end brands are Smith and Wesson and Wilson Combat.

i think you mean maybe kimber and springfield rather than smith and wesson...unless you are talking about a sw 1911pc

smith and paras are considered some fo the more "affordable" 1911s

ive never shot a wilson combat but i can stand behind the fact that my kimber custom amd my cousins springfield operators are the 2 FINEST handguns ive ever fired stock from the factory...sw makes a nice 1911 but the stock version doesnt compare to the kimber or springfield in my opinion

but dont worry about it

we cant get wilsons in mass either way

 

[Executive]

This might help:
IN MY OPINION:

Para is the Hyundai or Kia of 1911's. OK assembly of rather inferior parts and questionable customer service.

Smith and Wesson is the Toyota of 1911's. Excellent assembly of very good parts and outstanding customer service. PC guns might be considered the Lexus division of S&W, and threaten the high end at a lower price.

Colt and Springfield are the Mercedes/BMW of 1911's. Excellent assembly of excellent parts. They have been doing it for a long time too. Tought to beat but you still get a very rare lemon.

Once you get into the ultra high end ($4000+) you are dealing with an exotic sportscar. Say a Ferrari or Lamborghini. These run phenomenally but require meticulous care and maintenance or they might just stop running altogether.

 

[Thor67]

I think you'll find a lot of varying points on the subject.

I disagree with Executive for instance on Para vs. Smith. I've had horrendous service from Smith and outstanding service from Para. I know of many people who've had a Smith break, and many who love their Paras, and vice versa.

In whay ways are they better? Is it true everything from the magazine, to the sights, the barrel are all custom and high grade?

Remember, when you're first learning to drive, you can crash a Ferrari just as easily as you can crash a Chevy.

Re: high end vs mid-line for a first pistol - I'd say go to the middle/low depending on what you can afford. I'd even say to step down a notch, and buy more ammo so you can learn to shoot better. .45 acp isn't cheap, and getting to the competent point may take several thousand rounds.

Keep in mind, you don't even know if you like the 1911 platform vs. other pistols. Try a few out first 1911s, Glocks, the S&W M&P, an XD if you can get your hands on one, and throw in a few revolvers just for giggles.

Don't go by what a gun magazine or a friend says, try things for yourself. Every gun fits everyone differently. Reliability is my main criteria in a carry gun, accuracy is next, concealability is last.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy used from a reputable dealer, and save another $100 either!

 

[Chris]

You don't mention where you live. In MA, your pickings of 1911's is pretty slim from the new market. Para, S&W, and Infinity are the only players I know of. Oh there is a new SIG too, but I don't know it it is MA approved yet.

The nice things about a 1911 is that you can get an "entry level" pistol and gunsmith it to whatever level you want. So, you can get a nice solid S&W and hand it over to a quality gunsmith and get back just about anything you want, or can afford.

As for off the shelf, higher cost does usually mean a lot more care in hand fitting of parts. In the 1911 design, there is always a small amount of hand assembly involved which is why these pistols are generally a bit higher than the other designs of the same caliber. The more you get human hands involved and the more 'target' oriented you make the pistol the more the pricetag increases.

I own a semi-custom made by Les Baer (well, his company actually) It's a great shooter, more accurate than I am, and is great when its working. The problem is that I have to be meticulous with cleaning, and I've already had a sear wear out. For a 'play' gun, that's fine, but I don't at all like this pistol as it is for self defense. I'd also like to change the sights to a more combat arrangement (the target sights are very hard to pick up quickly for me) but, the current sights are worked into the slide and I'd have to get a new slide fitted to get the sights I really want. I also find the extended safety too large for carry.

Since this pistol is impossible to get now, I've been avoiding doing work on it and keep telling myself "I'll get another 1911 to customize".

I do have two others, but they are both army issue and have some significance to me. Maybe someday I'll find a nice used S&W for a good price.

At any rate, as with any gun purchase, decide what you want to do with it and then buy/build to that goal. I got my Les Baer because I wanted the "best" 1911 I could afford. Well, it is a great gun if I was shooting bowling pins or other target games, but for things like IDPA and carry, it's not well suited for me.

 

[sksguns]

Now there is no substitute for a superior quality firearm, however, the firearm is only as good and as accurate as the user/shooter.

You said your life is priceless and if you truely believe so then spend some money on as much quality training as a quality firearm.

It doesn't matter how much a gun costs if you don't know how, where and when you are justified to use it.

 

[M1911]

I've got several 1911s (or variants thereof):

- fullsize Kimber, Kimber Compact, Kimber Compact aluminum
- Springfield fullsize
- ParaOrdnance P14
- Wilson Combat service grade
- Colt Delta Elite

By far the worst is the P14. After several thousand rounds, the hammer started following the slide -- I had to have a gunsmith replace the hammer, sear, and disconnector. The slide stop notch in the slide has worn, so the slide will probably have to be replaced. The gun is also prone to FTF near the end of the magazine. I've replaced the magazine springs and followers, but that didn't cure the problem. One of these days I'll have the gun built into a race gun. I'll keep the frame and magazines, but the rest of the parts aren't worth saving.

The P14 has the old-style sights, thumb safety, and grip safety. I much prefer high-visibility sites, an extended thumb safety, and a beavertail grip safety. All those parts are available on other PO models. The only question is whether their Q/A is any better now that it was on my early P14 model.

My Kimbers have been excellent guns. I have had trigger jobs done on them. I had a few FTF early on with them, but none since I went to standard capacity Wilson mags (7 rounds in the fullsize and 6 rounds in the compacts).

My Springfield was a Gunsite GSP2000. It was basically a stock Springfield mildly customized by the gunsmiths at Gunsite. This Springfield came with a two-piece barrel that was, to be polite, a POS. This full size gun was noticeably less accurate than my 4" Kimber Compacts. The trigger had some creep in it and the disconnector was noticeably bowed. The Springfield has a fuller profile to the front strap, making the gun feel a bit less comfortable in my hand. It came with Novak night sights. I find the rear Novak sight to be intolerably busy. It attracts your eye and its multitude of surfaces invariably reflects light -- it's an abomination. I had the barrel and action parts replaced, so now the gun is reasonably accurate.

I've also shot a Springfield that a friend of mine owns. He got it new and sent it to the Springfield custom shop for a bunch of work. They did a really pretty melt job to the gun. But the barrel lock is only fair and shooting it side-by-side with my stock full-size Kimber, my Kimber was noticeably more accurate.

So while my sample size on Springfields is quite small (only 2), I have to say that I would not be interested in trying a third (although that is currently an academic argument, since you can't get Springfield's here in MA).

I picked up a Colt Delta Elite (10mm) used a while back. It was very lightly used. It came with the original low visibility sights, small thumb safety, and grip safety that I don't like. I had Heinie sight installed, along with a slim extended thumb safety and a beavertail grip safety. I also had the gunsmith do a trigger job. It still has the overly full front strap profile that I don't care for. But the gun is remarkably accurate.

Last year I picked up a used Wilson Combat service grade. This is Wilson's basic gun. It has high-visibility target sights, with an adjustable rear sight, and they are sweet. Very fast to pick up. It's an all around nice gun.

Of those guns, my favorite for competition is the Wilson Combat. The full-size Kimber isn't far behind. For carry, it's my Kimber Compact Aluminum frame. I don't recommend ParaOrdnance or Springfield, based on my experience. YMMV.

I don't have any experience with the S&W 1911s, so I can't comment on them.

 

[LORD of WAR]

executive...nice analogy...but you forgot kimber!!!...they must be the porsches of 1911's

 

[Bugs100]

I got my 1st 1911 in 1966 since then I've shot a lot of them.

From the colts with the rattles, to the Springfields with the stuck mags and the cheap army reproductions that some times are a good pistol but are better off left to some who wants a 1911 to play gunsmith with. I've enjoyed them all. 1911's are a love hate relationship.

Right now I have more of them than commen sense and I like the S&W's the best. I have 2 with over 2000 rounds apeice through them and never a falter.

You can pick up the S&W basic model with novack sights for less that $700 that's a deal that's hard to ignore.

But I really want you to stop and think, do you really want to go down this road to insanity.

 

[drgrant]

If you live in MA, have fun trying to get a wilson, unless you have an FFL that
will "rug sweep" one of the guns in under the iron curtain, or unless you find a
private seller who moved here with one.

A more realistic goal is to try to get yourself an S+W performance center
gun, or if you want really high end, import a blank frame, then send it out
and have it custom built by someone... problem with that is it takes forever
and costs lots of $$$$$.....

Getting back on topic.... you generally get what you pay for... but would I sink 4K into
a 1911? No way. Anything over ~2500 is pretty much fluff, and some would argue you
can get a perfectly serviceable 1911 for less than half that, and I would tend to agree with
them.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

problem with that is it takes forever and costs lots of $$$$$.....

That depends. I suspect there are a couple local gunsmiths who would not take forever or cost a huge amount. And that way you could get exactly what you want.

Of course, if it is your first 1911, you won't know exactly what you want. I do know that my tastes have changed somewhat over the years. YMMV.

 

[howie]

So
here we go again. this 1911 is better than this one. all i can said is i have had 2 or 3 kimber 2 springfields tons of colt 2 para (yes they cheap built. sorry for you guys that like them ,there just not for me) even a bul-mp5 hi cap and 3 smiths.
i have friend who have les baers (very nice ) and 1911 built by ted yost ( the best i have shot) i still thing you cant beat a sw1911. i bought my first smith in 2004 when i toke jim crews class with jim conway. (everybody should talk to jim if you want to shoot better . jim a great teacher simply the best in my book.) i have put about 8000 round though in 3 years and the only problem i had was i need a new recoil spring! big deal , so i put a 18 1/2 pound wolf in it and it still shoot the black out of the target. so for my 2 cents buy a sw1911 and have a great time shooting
howie

 

[adweisbe]

I think you can get a custom built Caspian for 300 dollars plus the cost of parts @ retail.

 

[dreppucci007]

I have a Smith, a Kimber, and a Springfield...I love them all equally

 

[dd]

Youze guys are hard on the Para! I have two with Colt uppers and have shot one of them for 15-ish years, thousands of rounds. Have two complete Paras with no problems from either.

Have one Kimber that I hardly shoot. No attraction; a basic gun.

Have several Colts incl Gold Cups, pre Ser 70, Ser 70s, Ser 80s. Again, nothing special about them except the collectable ones.

Have several SAs, two of which have been "built" into competition bullseye guns and one just acquired which shot a 3/4 inch group today at 25 feet!

Have four 1911 S&Ws, two basic guns, one black w/adj sights, and one SC. FOR THE MONEY, the S&W is the BEST BUY available (around $750). They have many parts that would cost hundreds of dollars if you put the on afterwards. Mine all shoot very well, but triggers DO VARY from Great to So-so.

I do HIGHLY recommend the S&W 1911 especially if you live in MA where many of the other 1911s cannot be purchased. See Shooting Times, Aug 2005 for test of Rock River Arms Elite Commando that shot 3/4 inch group at 50 YARDS from a Ransom Rest!! $1725 list (then) but WE cannot buy them here!

 

[Scrivener]

A more realistic goal is to try to get yourself an S+W performance center
gun, or if you want really high end, import a blank frame, then send it out and have it custom built by someone... problem with that is it takes forever
and costs lots of $$$$$....

If it's a "first 1911," then money spent on a custom gun is largely wasted. Get a good, working 1911 and spend the remaining $1,500 - 2,000 on ammo and training. For that, a Para or S&W will be fine.

Custom? Instead of playing the "frame game," spec out either a classic or double-stack SVI. Both the Traditional Target and Competition Target models have been Mass-compliant since 11/02.

 

[M1911]

Youze guys are hard on the Para!

Hard on Para? Sorry, but a gun that develops hammer follow within a few thousand rounds from new is not acceptable. The slide stop notch deforming after a few thousand rounds is not acceptable. And my experiences with poor hammer/sear/disconnector on PO is not unique -- it is all too common with PO.

If it's a "first 1911," then money spent on a custom gun is largely wasted. Get a good, working 1911 and spend the remaining $1,500 - 2,000 on ammo and training.

+1

After you put several thousand rounds down range, you'll start to decide what features you like and what you don't -- adjustable versus fixed sights, single-side versus ambi-safety, short or long trigger, etc.

 

[Weerd Beard]

I have a Smith, a Kimber, and a Springfield...I love them all equally

When did you get all of these? OK we REALLY need to go shooting!

Arrrrr