XM177E2 clone build of a MAC-V-SOG CAR-15

[Cap'n Mike]

I’m a military history buff, and I have been reading and listening to podcasts lately about MACVSOG Spike Teams running recon on ”The Trail” in Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war. Many of these guys carried XM177E2 CAR-15s, and I have been motivated to combine my love of guns with my love of history and build as close a clone to the guns these men carried as I can.
i have spent the last year or so gathering parts and I think I have everything I need, now I just need to do the work or send it out to others to get done.

 

[Picton]

I’m a military history buff, and I have been reading and listening to podcasts lately about MACVSOG Spike Teams running recon on ”The Trail” in Laos and Cambodia during the Vietnam war. Many of these guys carried XM177E2 CAR-15s, and I have been motivated to combine my love of guns with my love of history and build as close a clone to the guns these men carried as I can.
i have spent the last year or so gathering parts and I think I have everything I need, now I just need to do the work or send it out to others to get done.View attachment 510728

Whee!

I'm looking into one of those as we speak. If you grew up in the Platoon generation and wanted to be Barnes or Elias, you want that CAR-15.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Some pictures I have collected of SOG Recon teams, many are from John Myers book, Across The Fence, which I highly recommen, along with his other books and podcast.

Across The Fence: The Secret War in Vietnam - SOG Chronicles

sogchronicles.com

Podcasts - SOG Chronicles

sogchronicles.com

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Whee!

I'm looking into one of those as we speak. If you grew up in the Platoon generation and wanted to be Barnes or Elias, you want that CAR-15.

I went out and bought this Colt 6520 Carbine after seeing Platoon Back in the late 80s . Still have it, though I had the barrel chopped and an A2X pinned and welded. I think I read that the Platoon carbines were Philippine Miltary.

 

[Picton]

I went out and bought this Colt 6520 Carbine after seeing Platoon Back in the late 80s . Still have it, though I had the barrel chopped and an A2X pinned and welded. I think I read that the Platoon carbines were Philippine Miltary.View attachment 510745

Yeah, they definitely weren't meant to be XMs. The muzzle device wasn't right. Other than that, though...

I served early on during the M4 era, the last time carry handles stayed attached. To me, no AR looks right without a handle. The more crap that gets hung off those things, the worse I think they look.

SP1, 20-rounder, triangle guards. That's when the platform still looked sexy.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Yeah, they definitely weren't meant to be XMs. The muzzle device wasn't right. Other than that, though...

I served early on during the M4 era, the last time carry handles stayed attached. To me, no AR looks right without a handle. The more crap that gets hung off those things, the worse I think they look.

SP1, 20-rounder, triangle guards. That's when the platform still looked sexy.

I agree.
In basic, I was issued a GM Hydromatic. This was 1992.
Every rifle I was issued up to 2000 when I got out had a carry handle, either an A1 or A2.
I have built and carried several flat tops in the last 20 years, and optics, suppressors and lights make doing the job easier, but Retro guns are just sexy.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I was originally going to simply buy a Brownells 11.5 XM177E2 complete upper to do this build, but they have been out of stock forever. 11.5 pencil barrels are also very hard to find lately, so I started looking for alternatives.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I found this 1985 Colt Carbine upper. It’s remarkable because it has a teardrop forward assist along with A1 type “Field sights”. Apparently when Colt started selling civilian SP1 carbines in 1978 they didn’t have a forward assist. This changed in 1985 when the Sporter II was introduce. In 1986 or so, the case deflector was added to the Sporter II upper and then in 1988or so, the Govt Carbine was rolled out with A2 target sights upper. So the correct Colt upper for a XM177E2 clone was only offered in a very narrow window. It also has the correct early port door, pencil barrel, non F marked sight base, and skinny hand guards.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I decided early on I wanted to SBR an 11.5 inch barrel, as the pinned 12.7 inch barrels look wrong to me, and so does the extra long 5.5 inch moderators pinned to an 11.5. I found the correct dimension 4.3 inch fake moderator offered by Retro Arms Works. This thing is beautiful. It does not have sound reducing baffles like the originals, but appearance wise is original in every way.

 

[Whiskeywon]

I agree.
In basic, I was issued a GM Hydromatic. This was 1992.
Every rifle I was issued up to 2000 when I got out had a carry handle, either an A1 or A2.
I have built and carried several flat tops in the last 20 years, and optics, suppressors and lights make doing the job easier, but Retro guns are just sexy.

I actually have a GM hydromatic reweld that's been professionally redone. Fantastic piece that'll go towards something very soon.
As far as correct barrels the Colt LW 11.5 is nearly completely correct. The diameter of the barrel where the gas block is is 750 as opposed to 625 but the rest of the visible section is correct. See if I can go snap a picture of mine.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I actually have a GM hydromatic reweld that's been professionally redone. Fantastic piece that'll go towards something very soon.
As far as correct barrels the Colt LW 11.5 is nearly completely correct. The diameter of the barrel where the gas block is is 750 as opposed to 625 but the rest of the visible section is correct. See if I can go snap a picture of mine.

Very cool.
I’m going to try my hand at electro etching the nodak spud 80% A1 lower I have. I managed to get the correct stencils a while back from dogfight ink.

 

[Whiskeywon]

So as you can see it is a thin barrel profile except for the sight base diameter which is still .750.
I do have correct the colt A1 grip and handguard just haven't gotten around to install them. Was able to get a fair priced original colt metal stock though that is shown.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

So as you can see it is a thin barrel profile except for the sight base diameter which is still .750.
I do have correct the colt A1 grip and handguard just haven't gotten around to install them. Was able to get a fair priced original colt metal stock though that is shown.

View attachment 510888

That’s beautiful
I wouldn’t have noticed the fatter profile barrel under the front sight if you hadn’t mentioned it.
The og grips and hand guards do have a certain shininess to them.
Did you get the upper and lower anodized or did they come that way?

 

[Whiskeywon]

That’s beautiful
I wouldn’t have noticed the fatter profile barrel under the front sight if you hadn’t mentioned it.
The og grips and hand guards do have a certain shininess to them.
Did you get the upper and lower anodized or did they come that way?

The upper and lower were me experimenting with anodizing which is why they aren't quite perfect, but they're good enough. Only thing I have left to do with it is shave the bayonet lug off and swap to the more correct grip/handguard as mentioned because original just has that look as you mentioned.
Honestly the job that Nodak or Brownells in conjunction with Nodak & Aero do are both sufficient. My experimenting is because I am going to have one test laser engraved to add the correct markings to it which will be interesting. So I was seeing how close I could get to their coloring. My attempt is the top attempt and you can see it is ever so slightly darker and more matte than the full Nodak in the middle and the Anchor Harvey Colt on the bottom. Ignore the magazine release not being threaded all the way, it's getting swapped to original parts in the next couple days.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

That stuff looks great. If there is a difference in the finishes, it’s not obvious to me.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I have sent the upper off to Retro Arms Works.
John Thomas is going to:
-disassemble/reassemble upper half
-cut/crown/thread barrel to 11.5 inches
-open gas port on barrel
-remove bayonet lug and forge flash from sight base, reparkerize base
all for the bargain price of $155

 

[Cap'n Mike]

I decided I wanted to make this rifle correct looking as opposed to absolutely correct.
For example, the Colt 6420 Upper I am using has a 1 in 7 twist, as opposed to the absolutely correct 1 in 12 twist.
Another example of this is the lower receiver parts kit. For the trigger guard, bolt catch and magazine release, I purchased used M16a1 parts. For things like the springs and detents, I am using a CMMG LPKit.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

That’s awesome. I hope to have one someday.

Sarah Connor used a “replica” (I think it was a chopped 6920) in T2. I’ve loved them since Platoon and T2. Hot as f***.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

That’s awesome. I hope to have one someday.

Sarah Connor used a “replica” (I think it was a chopped 6920) in T2. I’ve loved them since Platoon and T2. Hot as f***.

View attachment 510932

Very cool.
i cant tell if those are A1 or A2 sights on the carry handle.
That muzzle device could be some kind of slip over on a 16 inch barrel.

 

[Picton]

Very cool.
i cant tell if those are A1 or A2 sights on the carry handle.
That muzzle device could be some kind of slip over on a 16 inch barrel.

A1 I think. A2 sights usually have a different light reflection off the sight part, even when you can't see the seam.

And I bet you're right about the muzzle device, but that's probably what I'll go with if I ever get around to it.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

The one on the right is a slip over.
it definitely improves the look of a 16 inch carbine.

 

[Andy in NH]

Troy makes a clone XM177 (Troy XM177 For Sale, Reviews, Price - $752.00 - In Stock)
Not sure how correct of a model it is or if Troy is still a verboten company to deal with?

I had a XM177 clone made on a PWA lower years ago.
At some point I had the barrel switched out for one that had the M4 profile when that became the cool thing to have.

I still would like a XM177 clone again some day.

SOG member John Plaster turned in his 9mm SMG (a Kulsprutepistol m/45) for an XM177 to carry on missions across the fence.
Later, he stopped carrying his Browning Hi Power on missions so he could carry more rifle magazines.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Troy makes a clone XM177 (Troy XM177 For Sale, Reviews, Price - $752.00 - In Stock)
Not sure how correct of a model it is or if Troy is still a verboten company to deal with?

I had a XM177 clone made on a PWA lower years ago.
At some point I had the barrel switched out for one that had the M4 profile when that became the cool thing to have.

I still would like a XM177 clone again some day.

SOG member John Plaster turned in his 9mm SMG (a Kulsprutepistol m/45) for an XM177 to carry on missions across the fence.
Later, he stopped carrying his Browning Hi Power on missions so he could carry more rifle magazines.

Those Troy Rifles have been sold out since before the pandemic, along with Brownells Retro XM177E2s. Thy sell for over $1500 on gunbroker when they come up. There are Colts retro XM177E2s on Gunbroker, but they sell for north of $2500.

SOG guys could carry anything they wanted, and the smart move probably would have been an AK to confuse the enemy. But they loved the CAR-15 (XM177E2) overwhelmingly.
When the shit hit the fan, they had to establish fire superiority or they would quickly be over run. A CAR-15 on full auto (900 rounds a minute) was the best tool for the job.

Those Recon guys carried an unreal amount of ammo And gear.
John Meyer describes carrying 25 20 round magazines.
this is a pretty cool load out a collector put together.

looserounds.com - looserounds Resources and Information.

looserounds.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, looserounds.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

looserounds.com

 

[PatMcD]

Was it one of Jocko's podcasts you were listening to? He's got a bunch of SOG related interviews. They definitely make a long distance car trip fly by.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Was it one of Jocko's podcasts you were listening to? He's got a bunch of SOG related interviews. They definitely make a long distance car trip fly by.

I listened to all the SOG Jocko Podcasts.
They were fantastic.
Jocko setup John Meyer to do his own podcast.
He has 6 episodes out allready

View: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sogcast-untold-stories-of-mac-v-sog/id1572904295

 

[Andy in NH]

A CAR-15 on full auto (900 rounds a minute) was the best tool for the job.

These pictures show Plaster and Black wearing gloves on their support hand only because the handguards on their rifles got so hot from the amount of firing they did.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

Great pics.
Was Plaster the guy that mail ordered a bunch of 30 Round Magazines from the States for him and the other Recon guys because the Army couldn’t/wouldn’t get them?
Lynne Blacks book was probably my favorite.
That guy was crazy.

 

[Andy in NH]

Was Plaster the guy that mail ordered a bunch of 30 Round Magazines from the States for him and the other Recon guys because the Army couldn’t/wouldn’t get them?

He may have been.
MACV SOG is my favorite genre of military history to read about, but I don't always remember who to cite about what.
I can't remember if it was Plaster or Black who first mentioned the single glove thing in text or an interview, but once I became aware of it, I started to notice the technique in the photos.

 

[akma]

I got hooked on them from the TV series "Tour of Duty" 1987-1990. I had a Bushmaster one from the time of the first Gulf War. 11.5 barrel with a 5.5 flash hider. Still love the teardrop forward assist.

 

[Cap'n Mike]

That was a great show
Didn’t they change from light infantry into a SOG Recon team in the last season? I think I wasn’t watching much, if at all at that point. I should try to see if it’s streaming somewhere.