True Velocity sues Sig Sauer, alleging stolen trade secrets

[PappyM3]

Oh Sig…

Looks like they may have poached some key engineers from True Velocity and used the engineers’ proprietary knowledge to accelerate development of their .338 Norma magnum machine gun.

True Velocity sues Sig Sauer, alleging stolen trade secrets

True Velocity is suing Sig Sauer, alleging it stole trade secrets used in the weapon design the Army chose for its Next-Generation Squad weapon.

www.defensenews.com

 

[drgrant]

their .338 Norma magnum machine gun.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc



I can't even....

I mean I can see sig being a bunch of shitbigs, sure, thats easy... but... looks like someone is making a hail mary here... How long does a barrel last with that, one belt?

Then again the velocity isnt super absurd (iits like 2700 fps like 308 etc) so its one of those things that might actually be a cool idea, but will never take off because of the cartridge cost.

 

[PappyM3]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc



I can't even....

I mean I can see sig being a bunch of shitbigs, sure, thats easy... but... looks like someone is making a hail mary here... How long does a barrel last with that, one belt?

Then again the velocity isnt super absurd (iits like 2700 fps like 308 etc) so its one of those things that might actually be a cool idea, but will never take off because of the cartridge cost.

It’s taking off because the Army wants it. They are to replace the M2 for most uses. The Army is also going to 338 Norma for its long range sniper rifles to replace the M107. But no, it will never take off on the civilian market. It will be about as common as 338 Lapua or 50 BMG are now. Meme cartridges for the range. But that’s the civilian side. It is planned to be well fielded in the Army.

With a chrome lined, CHF barrel, I’m sure the barrel life isn’t terrible.



Though, I like Ohio Ordnance’s offering more:

REAPR – Ohio Ordnance Works' .338 Machine Gun

The REAPR or Recoil Enhanced Automatic Rifle is chambered in .338 Norma Magnum and can also be calibre converted to 7.62x51mm.

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[Dench]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1UtRnGn5hc



I can't even....

I mean I can see sig being a bunch of shitbigs, sure, thats easy... but... looks like someone is making a hail mary here... How long does a barrel last with that, one belt?

Then again the velocity isnt super absurd (iits like 2700 fps like 308 etc) so its one of those things that might actually be a cool idea, but will never take off because of the cartridge cost.

I think that project was a response to an army request. Ohio ordinance also released a medium machine gun in the same caliber. I'm not sure if anyone else entered it.

Presumably if the Army adopts it the ammo will be made by the feds which should make it a little cheaper?

 

[drgrant]

I think that project was a response to an army request. Ohio ordinance also released a medium machine gun in the same caliber. I'm not sure if anyone else entered it.

Presumably if the Army adopts it the ammo will be made by the feds which should make it a little cheaper?

maybe, but the odds of any this shit actually being adopted into general use are long to begin with.

The DOD talks a lot of shit about small arms but rarely actually commits to anything in a meaningful way.

Even this .234567 Sig Fury albatross tthing probably is not long for the world. Much like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 grundle, etc, blah blah. A lot of shit will be
talked, a lot of spittle made by gun shop commandos pulling on their suspenders while blasting out 48 farts.... but most of this shit dies on the vine
because DOD cant commit to anything WRT small arms.

 

[drgrant]

It’s taking off because the Army wants it. They are to replace the M2 for most uses. The Army is also going to 338 Norma for its long range sniper rifles to replace the M107. But no, it will never take off on the civilian market. It will be about as common as 338 Lapua or 50 BMG are now. Meme cartridges for the range. But that’s the civilian side. It is planned to be well fielded in the Army.

I'll believe it when I see it. DOD just constantly jerks off over guns and never actually commits to them, that's been going on basically forever.

How many times have we seen this movie before? 6.8 SPC. Check. HK XM8/OICW, check, etc etc ad nauseam.

At best most of this stuff will probably end up being sequestered in the special operations realm and never leave it.

The only thing they've comitted to in a big way is the P320/M17... and thats likely because they were more or less forced to by an aging fleet of albatross M9 shitpistols.

 

[Dench]

There is definitely a role for a man portable MG that's in-between 308 and 50 cal.

The army actually acting in it is another thing.

 

[jkelly1229]

I think that project was a response to an army request. Ohio ordinance also released a medium machine gun in the same caliber. I'm not sure if anyone else entered it.

Presumably if the Army adopts it the ammo will be made by the feds which should make it a little cheaper?

How long did it take 556 / 7.62 to stabilize like we see today after adoption of the us mil

 

[DarthRevan]

It’s taking off because the Army wants it. They are to replace the M2 for most uses. The Army is also going to 338 Norma for its long range sniper rifles to replace the M107. But no, it will never take off on the civilian market. It will be about as common as 338 Lapua or 50 BMG are now. Meme cartridges for the range. But that’s the civilian side. It is planned to be well fielded in the Army.

With a chrome lined, CHF barrel, I’m sure the barrel life isn’t terrible.

View attachment 873995

Though, I like Ohio Ordnance’s offering more:

REAPR – Ohio Ordnance Works' .338 Machine Gun

The REAPR or Recoil Enhanced Automatic Rifle is chambered in .338 Norma Magnum and can also be calibre converted to 7.62x51mm.

www.thefirearmblog.com

View attachment 873996
View attachment 873997

It’s so hideous I’m full mast.

 

[DarthRevan]

While I won’t rush into the new cartridge, if it’s actually fielded and gains favor with the .mil users, I can see a civilian adoption of them.

 

[PappyM3]

While I won’t rush into the new cartridge, if it’s actually fielded and gains favor with the .mil users, I can see a civilian adoption of them.

I doubt 338 Norma will get much cheaper. Just like 50 BMG never got cheap.

 

[PappyM3]

maybe, but the odds of any this shit actually being adopted into general use are long to begin with.

The DOD talks a lot of shit about small arms but rarely actually commits to anything in a meaningful way.

Even this .234567 Sig Fury albatross tthing probably is not long for the world. Much like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 grundle, etc, blah blah. A lot of shit will be
talked, a lot of spittle made by gun shop commandos pulling on their suspenders while blasting out 48 farts.... but most of this shit dies on the vine
because DOD cant commit to anything WRT small arms.

Sure, there are lots of dead branches in the small arms R&D tree. A lot of the failures were reaching a bit too high. But there have also been lots of advancements.

The M24 got re-chambered in 300 WM, then they switched to the M2010. Sure, the MSR/Mk21 was very short lived because Remington sucks and it turned out they didn’t meet requirements. But now the Army (and SOCOM) have contracts with Barrett for the Mk22/PSR that will come with quick swappable barrels/bolts for 308 (for training), 300NM and 338NM.

The Mk22 is slated to replace both the M2010 and the M107 in SOCOM and big Army. The USMC is considering it too.

Now, the 338NM MG is SOCOM specific for now, but the Army is looking at it. Since the newly fielded 6.8x51 XM250 kind of takes some of the use cases from the M240, I could see big Army wanting a little 338 Norma action to replace both the M240 and M2. That said, there is the tricky bit with the M240C being used in tracks and that’s a whole big can of worms. They may just re-chamber those to 6.8x51.

As for 6.8x51, it very well may have a short life, but I don’t think so. It’s already being fielded. I do think there’s a chance the XM7 is short lived, but I think the caliber and XM250 are here to stay for the foreseeable future. The only qualifier for 6.8x51 being short lived is if Lake City can’t get up to speed on pumping them out.

 

[drgrant]

Sure, there are lots of dead branches in the small arms R&D tree. A lot of the failures were reaching a bit too high. But there have also been lots of advancements.

The M24 got re-chambered in 300 WM, then they switched to the M2010. Sure, the MSR/Mk21 was very short lived because Remington sucks and it turned out they didn’t meet requirements. But now the Army (and SOCOM) have contracts with Barrett for the Mk22/PSR that will come with quick swappable barrels/bolts for 308 (for training), 300NM and 338NM.

The Mk22 is slated to replace both the M2010 and the M107 in SOCOM and big Army. The USMC is considering it too.

Now, the 338NM MG is SOCOM specific for now, but the Army is looking at it. Since the newly fielded 6.8x51 XM250 kind of takes some of the use cases from the M240, I could see big Army wanting a little 338 Norma action to replace both the M240 and M2. That said, there is the tricky bit with the M240C being used in tracks and that’s a whole big can of worms. They may just re-chamber those to 6.8x51.

As for 6.8x51, it very well may have a short life, but I don’t think so. It’s already being fielded. I do think there’s a chance the XM7 is short lived, but I think the caliber and XM250 are here to stay for the foreseeable future. The only qualifier for 6.8x51 being short lived is if Lake City can’t get up to speed on pumping them out.

I'm not saying any of these things aren't good ideas.... What I'm saying is that DOD sucks and that most of them will not turn into reality for reasons that have nothing to do with technical merit. Basically, the only reason they even get legs at all is was somebody in procurement, or some 4 star plays rubby bums with the MIC.

Some of all this stuff were talking about will stay around in the special operations land because there's a different level of flex there. But general use? Fat chance for 99%. DOD would feed the troops alpo prime cuts if they can get away with it.

 

[drgrant]

How long did it take 556 / 7.62 to stabilize like we see today after adoption of the us mil

556 and 762 was only ever inexpensive because of foreign milsurp. Once that dried up, so did low prices.

 

[jkelly1229]

556 and 762 was only ever inexpensive because of foreign milsurp. Once that dried up, so did low prices.

They still are the 2 cheapest rounds to buy for rifles by far... you can get a box of 7.62 for like 23 bucks where the cheapest box of 300 win is 30 or 6.5 butt pirate is around 30 as well

 

[drgrant]

I doubt 338 Norma will get much cheaper. Just like 50 BMG never got cheap.

Well 50bmg has a "mechanical' reason its expensive, there's way more brass copper lead and powder in every shot vs a typical rifle cartridge. Years ago at one point one 50bmg guy i know.... told me he was /reloading/ at $1.25 a round and that didn't include the initial cost of the brass.

 

[drgrant]

They still are the 2 cheapest rounds to buy for rifles by far... you can get a box of 7.62 for like 23 bucks where the cheapest box of 300 win is 30 or 6.5 butt pirate is around 30 as well

That is true, obviously. It depends on your definition of cheap, but i don't think any of these fancy calibers will ever be cheap. 300blk is (relatively) popular, it doesn't use a lot of materials and it's still pricey, as an example.

 

[drgrant]

While I won’t rush into the new cartridge, if it’s actually fielded and gains favor with the .mil users, I can see a civilian adoption of them.

Buy a couple powerball tickets your odds are better than either. I can see the flex on the poors crowd buying in though if the special ops community buys into one of them in a big way.

 

[DarthRevan]

Buy a couple powerball tickets your odds are better than either. I can see the flex on the poors crowd buying in though if the special ops community buys into one of them in a big way.

 

[drgrant]

@DarthRevan Oddly enough, also if a company like Springfield or Ruger start selling guns in one of these weird ball calibers, And that's a sign that it might actually go somewhere... Because most of the mass market gun companies are not gonna take the leap unless it's gonna pay off.

 

[DarthRevan]

I won’t be an early adopter but I do like the idea of new cartridges.

 

[jkelly1229]

That is true, obviously. It depends on your definition of cheap, but i don't think any of these fancy calibers will ever be cheap. 300blk is (relatively) popular, it doesn't use a lot of materials and it's still pricey, as an example.

300 black is still way behind 556 and 7.62x39 though. In intermediary

And 308/ 7.62 reigns supreme in longer range rigs.

Again cheap is subjective of course but yeah the .mil shooting them and 9mm drives the price down due to sheer volume alone.

If the .gov needs say 25 million rounds of 9mm per year then manufacturers are geared up to crank it out cheap already... we just benefit on the side from that.

 

[fencer]

Then again the velocity isnt super absurd (iits like 2700 fps like 308 etc) so its one of those things that might actually be a cool idea, but will never take off because of the cartridge cost.

I think it will take off because of the cartridge cost!
I remember when they first started deploying ACOGs, thinking, there is no way every Infantry man would be issued ACOGs. Then NVG's.
Boy was I wrong.
And while pricey, the refresh rate is low. The Military Industrial Complex needs the the military to use expensive gear that needs constant replenishment.
They give it cool names like 277 Fury and 338 Norma Magnum. Stuff like Vulcan cannon and Reaper, Predator. Names that appropriations committees fap to.

 

[Dench]

I doubt 338 Norma will get much cheaper. Just like 50 BMG never got cheap.

Maybe 50 never got cheap because it was essentially always a military round and not in the same tentative adoption scenario like all these new rounds.

I figured once something like 338nm gets big it'll drop it's price as now it has presumably mass production like 50 has had most of its life.

In other words as far as I know 50 was never a boutique round, whereas 338 NM is for sure right now.

 

[drgrant]

Maybe 50 never got cheap because it was essentially always a military round and not in the same tentative adoption scenario like all these new rounds.

I figured once something like 338nm gets big it'll drop it's price as now it has presumably mass production like 50 has had most of its life.

In other words as far as I know 50 was never a boutique round, whereas 338 NM is for sure right now.

The amount of powder, lead, copper and brass in a 50bmg round alone is massive, making the base costs high to begin with.....




Also lets pretend i was loading 50bmg. A pound of powder doesn't get you shit. A pound of smokeless will load less than 50 rounds of 50bmg. That same pound, for 5.56 would load like 280 rounds, and load like 1500 rds of 9mm.

Also 1 50bmg bullet, weight wise.... is like firing 6 x 9mm rounds.... in one shot. Its not hard to see the big expenses in material scaling.