Efa-10. What happens when you try your fifth of the year?

W

weehooker

Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
482
Likes
151
Feedback: 105 / 0 / 0
Been buying and selling more than a few firearms in the last year. I really can't recall if I've hit my personal transfer limit of 4/year. ( Is that calendar year of 365 days?) Looking to transfer another to a friend next week. Will the state system tell /deny me if I'm already at 4? Is there a easy way to find out?
Thanks
Dave
 
Last edited:
I think I would be more concerned about BATFE given that if you are regularly selling firearms for transfer they may come knocking asking for your FFL. Since their rules clearly state that selling one firearm "for profit" is enough to pull you in. I think the reference is ATF Ruling 73-13
 
I did my first eFA-10 yesterday and was wondering the same thing.

But if you hear the "whu whu whu" of a helicopter overhead after hitting submit ... run.
 
Re: Efa-10. WHat happens when you try your fith of the year?

The perfunctory IANAL. From a previous reading I'd say it's your responsibility to keep count. If you go over 4 the personal part of the transfer doesn't apply to you. Then there is an issue of being a dealer but without the requisite licenses etc. So would you be perjuring yourself if you still tick off the personal part of the (e)FA10? Who knows?
 
Efa-10. WHat happens when you try your fith of the year?

Let me be clear, you are creating a written record of an offense. It may let you do it, but it could be used against you. If someone looks, they are going to ask questions, right after they arrest you and seize all your firearms. Your responsibility to keep track.
 
weehooker said:
...Is that calendar year of 365 days?
Click to expand...

You are allowed four dispositions per calendar year...

MGL 140-128A said:
The provisions of section one hundred and twenty-eight shall not apply to any resident of the commonwealth who, without being licensed as provided in section one hundred and twenty-two, sells or transfers to other than a federally licensed firearms dealer or organization named above not more than four firearms, including rifles and shotguns in any one calendar year;...
Click to expand...

General Laws: CHAPTER 140, Section 128A



Smash05 said:
Let me be clear, you are creating a written record of an offense. It may let you do it, but it could be used against you. If someone looks, they are going to ask questions, right after they arrest you and seize all your firearms. Your responsibility to keep track.
Click to expand...

+1 And the penalty is quite severe...

MGL 140-128 said:
...any person who, without being licensed as hereinbefore provided, sells, rents or leases a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, or is engaged in business as a gunsmith, shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000, or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.
Click to expand...

General Laws: CHAPTER 140, Section 128
 
Last edited:
Beecher Tool said:
I think I would be more concerned about BATFE given that if you are regularly selling firearms for transfer they may come knocking asking for your FFL. Since their rules clearly state that selling one firearm "for profit" is enough to pull you in. I think the reference is ATF Ruling 73-13
Click to expand...

*rollseyes*
 
Thanks for the input, guys, Looks like another one of those famous MA grey areas. i.e. "You MIGHT be a winner". I'll likely just use a Dealer for the rest of the year. It's going to be harder than it's worth to figure out otherwise.
 
Wait, you don't keep track of the firearms that enter and leave your possession?

Even if the state didn't require the FA-10s, having proof that you sold a firearm in the rare instance it's used in a crime after leaving your possession, is worth it.
 
Steyr_AUG said:
*rollseyes*
Click to expand...

Before you roll your eyes......the following is the text of the ruling....if anyone chooses to discount that it is an issue, that is certainly their right..however, the ruling I cited deals with gunsmiths...and it seems to me to be pretty broad. I would hate to see someone get trapped off with a problem.I can obviously agree that if a person is selling off a collection of firearms that they have owned for a substantial length of time it ought not apply. However, if the person is continually buying and selling firearms....I personally would be concerned.

26 CFR 178.11: MEANING OF TERMS
(Also 178.23, 178.44)
Because of the nature of operations conducted by a gunsmith, he shall not be required to
have business premises open to the general public or to have regular business hours.
ATF Rul. 73-13
[Status of ruling: Active; Amplified by ATF Rul. 77-1]
Advice has been requested whether a gunsmith must establish business premises open to the
general public and regular business hours in the same manner as dealers engaged in the business
of selling firearms or ammunition at wholesale or retail in order to be eligible for a license under
the provisions of Chapter 44, Title 18, United States Code and regulations issued pursuant
thereof.
It has been pointed out that generally, the clientele of a gunsmith who is not engaged in the
business of selling firearms or ammunition at wholesale or retail are only those persons seeking
to have firearms repaired or altered as opposed to those seeking to purchase firearms or
ammunition. Furthermore, a gunsmith often does not have regular business hours but conducts
business during hours which are best suited to himself or his clientele. Thus, the number of
hours which such a gunsmith is open to serve his clientele may be fewer than those of a dealer
engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms or ammunition.
The term “dealer” is defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11) to include “any person engaged in the
business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger
mechanisms to firearms.”
One of the requirements under 18 U.S.C. 923(d)(1) for approval of a dealer’s license is that the
applicant has in a State premises from which he conducts business subject to a license or from
which he intends to conduct such business within a reasonable period of time. The term
“business premises” is defined n 26 CFR 178.11 to mean: “The property on which firearms or
ammunition importing, manufacturing or dealing business is or will be conducted. A private
dwelling, no part of which is open to the public, shall not be recognized as coming within the
meaning of the term.” The type of business premises, as well as the business hours, is required
by 26 CFR 178.44 to be included on the application for a firearms dealer’s license.
It is also provided in 18 U.S.C. 923(g) that the premises of a licensee may be entered during
business hours for the purpose of inspecting or examining records or documents required to be
kept as well as any firearms or ammunition kept or stored at such premises.
Held, because of the nature of operations conducted by a gunsmith, any applicant for a
license who intends to engage solely in this type of business and so specifies on his application
will not be required to maintain regular business hours. Further, if the businessis conducted
from a private dwelling, a separate portion should be designated as the business premises, which
need not be open to all segments of the public but only accessible to the clientele that the business isset up to serve. However, the licensed premises of the gunsmith are subject to the
inspection requirements of 18 U.S.C. 923(g) and 26 CFR178.23 and the gunsmith must maintain
the required records as specified in 26 CFR 178.121 et seq.
It is further held that, since under the law a gunsmith is a licensed firearms dealer, if he engages
in the business of buying and selling firearms, he must record his transactions on Form 4473
(Firearms Transaction Record) for each sale, and maintain the firearms acquisition and
disposition records required of all licensed dealers. However, if a gunsmith engages in the
business of buying and selling firearms during the term of his current license, he may be required
to submit a new Form 7 (Firearms) at the time of renewal in accordance with 26 CFR 178.45 and
meet the requirements of an applicant engaging in the business of buying and selling firearms,
such as having business premises open to the general public and having regular business hours.
 
Beecher Tool said:
I think I would be more concerned about BATFE given that if you are regularly selling firearms for transfer they may come knocking asking for your FFL. Since their rules clearly state that selling one firearm "for profit" is enough to pull you in. I think the reference is ATF Ruling 73-13
Click to expand...

Thats ridiculous. When I applied to get my FFL, they asked me if I sold at gun shows. I answered no and asked why they asked. They told me that if I only sold at gun shows, I didn't need an FFL. I was surprised so I followed up by asking, what if I go to 10 gun shows a year and sell 100 guns. No problem, they told me, a FFL was not necessary. The scenario you have outlined will never happen and has never happened. The ATF does not care (for the most part) about secondary sales between non-licensees unless there are straw buyers or buyers who are PPs.

Now back to the OP's question. I know two people who went over to 5 by accident. In one case, he was sent a letter telling him basically not to do it again. In another case the person never heard anything back from the state. Either way. Its not something I'd push.

You can always give the FRB a call and ask how many they have on record.
Then send in the PDF copy.

Don
 
My intention was NOT directed at state law, specifically at Federal and respectfully... IMO there is about to be a very drastic change in how the game is played. Rather than debate I will end the thought by saying that I was being careful.
 
Well, if the ATF decides to change the rules, they will let all the gun show vendors know. At this point there are literally THOUSANDS of people who sell primarily at gun shows who have either been denied FFLs by the ATF or told by the ATF not to bother applying, because they sold only at gun shows. It is one of the first questions the agents ask you when you are interviewed as part of the process of getting a FFL.

But lets get back to the OP's question. I'd just like to clarify your point.

Are you saying that if you sell 5 firearms in a year, you put yourself at risk of being prosecuted by the ATF for dealing in firearms without a license?
 
Last edited:
i don't even understand why the ATF is coming into play in this MA brainwashed thread. the ATF does not GAF about how many guns you sell via FA-10/eFA-10. the ATF won't care about how many guns you sell because you don't report this data to the ATF in any way when you sell a gun. yes, buying guns with the intent to resell them for profit makes the ATF angry, but you have got to move a lot of firearms for them to take notice, not sell five firearms in a calendar year in massachusetts.

now with what happens? first they seal off your neighborhood, next they cut the power, then finally they fast-rope into your front yard, breech, bang, and clear your house, and then you're off to the deepest, darkest hole they can find in the basement torture room at beacon hill.
 
As a point of clarification...my focus was more in the case of where someone bought a number lowers for example, built them out and sold them in a short period of time. The question I was focused on is when you come close to the line between being a dealer and a manufacturer. If you work on someone else's gun..its gunsmithing and you get close to needing an FFL 01. If you buy parts, build and sell you probably need an FFL 07. I hope that clarifies the point I was seeking to make. Further, if they do pass a universal background check and kill off private to private sales or you guys get something like the Illinois FOID card or New Jersey FID, then the entire process will change. The intention was to highlight another angle, not dispute a MA specific issue.
 
no, 01FFL is not a mfg, that is a 07, you're wrong in your post, but then you get it right. therefore i can only assume you don't actually understand how all this works.

you do not need to be licensed to work on someone else's gun btw, however if you're going to do it for everyone and not just your buddies, then it may be a good idea to become licensed, yes.

so what if someone has bought a number of lowers and sold them? those aren't even firearms, they are "other"s, so the person would not even be selling firearms AND they'd have to stay in the home state unless they were going to FFLs in other states, you can't take them across state lines like long guns.

after typing this all up i saw you were in IL which is pretty much worse than here so now i understand your post completely.
 
atilla said:
i don't even understand why the ATF is coming into play in this MA brainwashed thread. the ATF does not GAF about how many guns you sell via FA-10/eFA-10. the ATF won't care about how many guns you sell because you don't report this data to the ATF in any way when you sell a gun. yes, buying guns with the intent to resell them for profit makes the ATF angry, but you have got to move a lot of firearms for them to take notice, not sell five firearms in a calendar year in massachusetts.

now with what happens? first they seal off your neighborhood, next they cut the power, then finally they fast-rope into your front yard, breech, bang, and clear your house, and then you're off to the deepest, darkest hole they can find in the basement torture room at beacon hill.
Click to expand...

That's not the worst part, I heard Patrick hired Feinstein as the dungeon master.
 
weehooker said:
Thanks for the input, guys, Looks like another one of those famous MA grey areas. i.e. "You MIGHT be a winner". I'll likely just use a Dealer for the rest of the year. It's going to be harder than it's worth to figure out otherwise.
Click to expand...

Not really a grey area. It's pretty clear privately selling more than 4 guns/year is against the law.
 
Given how strigiently the state is tracking the other criminals in MA, (reference the 119 sex offenders whose addresses cross-referenced with child day care centers) it may be an unsure and indefinite wait for our blue-shirted JBTs to catch up to you.

This state excels at paying bureaucrats exorbitant sums of money to oversee programs, only to have them exhibit levels of incompetency that only the exaggerations of Hollywood could upstage.
 

Similar threads

EFA-10 Question
Replies
1
Views
134
MAD Geary
MAD Geary
What is your oldest firearm?
2 3
Replies
69
Views
1K
Toast
Toast
The 10 Commandments of Gun Safety
Replies
2
Views
274
deerdad
deerdad
What are the stages of the LTC application?
2
Replies
45
Views
703
Mesatchornug
Mesatchornug
Yesterday Was The 10 Year Anniversary Of The Bundy Family Cattle Ranch Standoff Against The BLM
Replies
4
Views
263
Matt_SERE
Matt_SERE
Back
Top Bottom