.30 Carbine HELP! Warning: Oversized pictures

[vellnueve]

Mod: Please note that I want to seperate this from the other thread because of the huge picture sizes that will help see what's going on.

I've been working on my first batch of .30 carbine. I picked out the cleaned brass with an A-P headstamp because it was the cleanest looking. I posted about my eyeballing these cases and thinking that something just looked wrong with them after resizing (happens with the W-W and R-P also) and here is the result after expanding, adding 13.4 grains of 296, then a 110 gr Speer JHP.

OALs for the batch of 50 ranged from 1.644 to 1.614

These are the 10 shortest ones which I seperated out so I could pull them and reseat them later. The case looks like a hourglass to my eye, and look at the picture of them standing up and tell me that's not right.

PLEASE HELP! I'm sure these cases are trash, but I want to save what I have left until it works right.

My setup is a single stage Lee turret press using the 3 die Lee set (also have a factory crimp die but I don't think these will make it to that step)

Only thing I can think of is that the shellholder and the die might not be centered on each other. A friend suggested that the brass might be of poor quality or something (although it's a similar situation with the R-P and W-W) - Or possibly the chamber is badly out of spec. I also looked at the die and the decapping assembly looks to be a little bit off center, so maybe the die itself is off center?

 

[EddieCoyle]

It looks like either the bullets are oversized, or (more likely) the sizing die is undersized. The bullets should be .308 in diameter. I suspect the cause is the resizing die though. In the other thread you mentioned having a bulge at the bottom of the case after resizing. That could be caused by the die squeezing the case too much (diameter too small). This would account for the shape - the bulge at the bottom, the "thin" area in the middle, and the wider area caused by the bullet re-stretching the case (back to it's "normal" size) when it's inserted.

Can you resize a case and, before expanding, measure the outside and inside diameter at the top? I'll do the same and we can compare. I won't be around until tonight but I'll put the .30 Carbine die in when I get home.

Also, try inserting a bullet into a non-resized case and see what it looks like.

Just for the record, your brass is probably fine. In fact, if it was me, I'd go ahead and shoot those. I use an EGW undersized sizing die to resize 10mm from my Glocks. The resulting cartridges all have that "hourglass" shape to them and they shoot fine.

 

[jhrosier]

The cases look normal for a reloaded cartridge.
The die makers normally make the die to size the case three or four thousandths of an inch smaller than the factory spec. This allows for variations in the thickness of the neck. The bullet will then size the neck back to whatever size is needed from the inside. This causes the slight step at the bottom of the bullet. Since the cases are not supported when the bullet is seated, the bulge may occur mostly on one side of the case, making it look a lot worse than it really is.
As long as the mouth of the case is not too large to chamber, there is no problem.

 

[EddieCoyle]

The die makers normally make the die to size the case three or four thousandths of an inch smaller than the factory spec.

I find that Lee dies especially size them small.

 

[WVBob]

You need to seat the bullet deeper so it crimps in the grove on the bullet. My Lyman normally size them smaller on the .30 Carbine and yours look normal. Check you OAL and if it's below max, see if they chamber. In relooking at what you have, I can see that they will not chamber. You need to seat the bullet deeper and back off on your crimp. You have to much of a roll crimp. It does not need to be that tight. Remember, it headspaces on the case mouth and with it that tight it will not space. If you have any factory round, look at them. Get the case mouth into the grove of the bullet and back off the crimp so it will head space. It's like a 9MM or .45 ACP, it has to be out that little bit.

 

[vellnueve]

The Speer Varminter bullet has two grooves. There is a cannelure which is just inside the case when fully seated.

How about the cartridges that look like they're tipping over? The one in the last picture is the one I'm worried about most.

Also, how about the seating issue? Should I worry that several of them are measuring in at 1.615ish when the COL listed for this bullet/case combination is 1.635?

 

[WVBob]

How about the cartridges that look like they're tipping over? The one in the last picture is the one I'm worried about most.

Do you know what it looked like before you loaded it? If it went through a sizing die it should be fine. But be careful.

The Speer Varminter bullet has two grooves. There is a cannelure which is just inside the case when fully seated.

That cannelure is what the case mouth needs to be on. The little bit short is no trouble. Don't have them long, that's bad.

Take your crimp back until it's smooth or out just a touch. It's a feel thing.

 

[vellnueve]

Thanks for the advice, guys. I think I'll try some of them out if they chamber correctly (standing in the cleaning room with a string tied to the gun on the bench)



I just tried another one of the A-P (American Eagle?) cases in the resizer and it came out leaning to one side again.

Inside diameter is .3035, outside is .328. Length 1.285, diameter at the back before the rim is .350

On a Winchester (W-W) its .3025 and .330, length 1.2905, .353 diameter at the back.

Again, its a Lee carbide resizer, the one that comes with their 3 die set.

 

[jhrosier]

I find that Lee dies especially size them small.

Y'know, I was wondering if it would be good to back off the die a turn or so to reduce the amount of sizing slightly. It might just make the cases lasts a little longer, and if there is still enough neck tension to hold the bullet securely, I can't see any harm. Here's hoping that the decapping pin is far enough out to still work. I adjusted one of the Lee decappers before and it takes a considerable effort to put the collet back as tight as the factory makes them.

BTW, anyone got a jacketed bullet load for Bluedot powder in the .30 carbine?

 

[vellnueve]

Sorry, I don't have a load for you, not in Lyman's 48th or Speer's 13th.

My decapper was pushed out twice by the berdan primed LC52 brass, but I managed to get it back in all the way.

 

[jhrosier]

....
How about the cartridges that look like they're tipping over? The one in the last picture is the one I'm worried about most.

To do a quick check for rim damage, set a few fired cases on a flat surface and make sure that they stand straight and don't rock if touched lightly.
BTW, same test after loading is a quick check for high primers.

Also, how about the seating issue? Should I worry that several of them are measuring in at 1.615ish when the COL listed for this bullet/case combination is 1.635?

COL affects three things:

1. Will the cartridges fit in the magazine and feed smoothly.

2. Will the cartridges chamber without the bullet being jammed into the rifling.

3. Most important: Changing the COL changes the case capacity and will affect pressure. If you are working near the maximum load, seating a bullet deeper will reduce your case capacity and raise pressures, perhaps into the danger zone. I would not personally agonize over .010" to .020", but the closer that you stay to the published load data, the more consistent good results you will get.

 

[vellnueve]

I'm using 13.4 where the starting load is 13.0 and the max is 15, so I think the COL is probably not a problem. I sized all the ones that were too long down a little bit more to get within .003 or so.

 

[jhrosier]

Back from the cellar...
I tried backing the sizing die out one and two turns and found the following.

The taper of the case is so slight that backing the die off any reasonable amount will have very little effect on the step near the rim.

Backing the die off two turns reduces the straight area at the neck that provides tension to keep the bullet in place by more than 1/8". Good enough reason not to pursue this further.

Measuring some milsurp .30 Carbine ammo shows that the case is a couple thousandths smaller right under the bullet but it is very concentric so it is not obvious to the eye.

My conclusion is that if the die sizes the cases excessively, causing case splits after very few reloads, it should probably go back to Lee for replacement. Otherwise it is easy to ignore.

In reference to the earlier comments about the crimping groove, bear in mind that these bullets were probably intended for use in a number of different .308 sized cartridges, and the cannelures are located for these other cartridges which are intended to be crimped, not for the .30 Carbine. I have seen 30 cal bullets with as many as three cannelures, intended for various cartridges.

vellnueve,
Did you find any damage to the rims that would cause the cases to not stand straight?

 

[vellnueve]

No, all the rims are intact with the exception of indentations where the shellholder scratced the bottom of the cases.

 

[WVBob]

If the case is not damaged and does not stand real straight. Don't get to worked up. I did 50 rounds last night just to walk through the trouble you might be having and what to do to help.

I seat and crimp in two steps until I get it where I want it.
Back the crimping die off two or three turns.
Set the seater deep.
Put a ready case and bullet in and bring it up until you just feel it start to seat.
Measure it. Does it need to go deeper? Yes, Put it back in and seat it more.
Keep doing this until it's seated to the proper depth.
Back the seater out, a lot.
Raise the shell in the die. You should feel nothing. If you feel anything, stop and raise the die more. When you lift and feel nothing, turn the die until you feel it touch the case.
Lower the shell, turn the die in one full turn, and raise the shell. Check the crimp. Does it look good, case mouth not quite touching the bullet, Stop. Does it still bell out. Tighten the die 1/2 turn and repeat until you have a good crimp.
Raise the crimped shell and tighten the seater until it contacts the bullet.
Put a new ready shell and bullet into the shellholder and raise it. Measure it and check the crimp. It should be good.

Don't try to force anything, just go slow and make small adjustments.

 

[adweisbe]

I adjusted one of the Lee decappers before and it takes a considerable effort to put the collet back as tight as the factory makes them.

I made the mistake of doing that without the proper tools. A quick trip to autozone fixed that. Having a second person also helps.

 

[vellnueve]

Followup: I shot about 20 of them. They won't feed properly although a large part of that is the magazine which is a crappy 5 round commercial that doesn't sit high enough. Didn't blow myself up, so I'm happy.