Accuracy Expectations with M4?

[Dick]

(Not sure if this is the right place for this, so Mods please move if appropriate)

Largely due to the many discussions here I finally went out and bought my first EBR, a Bushie M4(gery). Now, I've spent my entire adult life around firearms and in the rifle department that meant, up to now, high-quality bolt actions with good scopes, combined with some very careful handloading. With that combination, I have a very good idea of what kind of accuracy I can expect off the bench with a good gun/load combination when I do my part, namely something less than about 1 MOA, which translates to roughly 2" groups at 200 yards.

So now I head out to the range with this AR clone with the funny stock, short barrel, battle sights, and Guatemalen surplus military ammo, and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I follow the instructions for "Improved Battle Sight Zero" starting at 50 yards, then 100, and finally out to 200, and the gun appears to be properly sighted in. The gun runs flawlessly, BTW.

So here's my question: I have no idea what sort of accuracy I should be expecting from this rig. At 200 yards, from the bench, using the iron battle sights small aperture, I can keep all of the shots on an 18" square target, with most of them forming what might be described as a 12" or so "group." If I did that with my heavy-barreled .22-250 with the 20X scope I'd probably give up the sport forever, but obviously I don't have the same expectations for this gun with iron sights. What's a reasonable expectation for the M4? I know the rifle/cartridge is capable of better accuracy, but I'm a bit of a newb with iron sights and there seems to be a lot of margin for error. Can someone give me an idea of what a reasonably good, but admittedly not great, shooter should be able to do with this gun? TIA

 

[Executive]

While a properly configured AR is certainly capable of excellent accuracy out to and beyond 200 yards, the M4 is not intended for that range. Look at the optics designed for the M4, many use a red dot type reticle and have little or no magnification. This allows rapid target acquisition in favor of ultimate accuracy. The M4 probably has a practical range of 100 yards or so. (Yes, I know, some guys can shoot them better than that.) You could mount an ACOG and see a decent improvement but I'd spend the money on a dedicated long range varmint upper with a 20"+ barrel, and mount a scope. This would give you two rifles in one.


Chris

 

[FPrice]

At 200 yards, from the bench, using the iron battle sights small aperture, I can keep all of the shots on an 18" square target, with most of them forming what might be described as a 12" or so "group."

I think this would be considered pretty good for the set-up you have. You can probably improve a little bit with better ammo, better optics, and practise but not much. Consider what kind of shooting that configuration was built for. If you want target accuracy, go for a target gun.

 

[Dench]

The M4 probably has a practical range of 100 yards or so.

Chris

its a lot more then that, id say 200+ meters.
around 350 it gets real iffy with iron sights

 

[Kaos116]

Maximum Range - 3,600 meters
Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters
Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 600 meters

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m4/m4-study-guide.shtml

 

[TonyDedo]

check out the Appleseed project:

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

Go to one of their weekend shoots: work with the amazing instructors & learn to shoot battle rifles with iron sights: they'll have you shooting at 4 MOA by the end of the weekend.

 

[M1911]

Dick has been shooting for quite a while. I suspect he's better acquainted with iron sights than most.

I haven't tried to get the best groups out of my shorty AR. Back when I was shooting high power, I could get about 1-2 MOA out of my heavy-barreled Armalite Golden Eagle and match ammo. I suspect the limitation was me and not the gun.

Triggers on out-of-the-box ARs are not that great. In addition, the stock front and rear sight are a bit large for the best accuracy, but it probably doesn't make much sense to put NM sights on an M4gery.

With a 4X optic and a better trigger, I would hope to get 2-4 MOA out of a short-barreled AR, but that is just a guess.

 

[Executive]

Maximum Range - 3,600 meters
Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 500 meters
Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 600 meters

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m4/m4-study-guide.shtml

I have little doubt that the 5.56 round can travel 3,600 meters, but where is it going to land?

I'm not sure what a "Point Target" and "Area Target" means.

The above link suggests that it will replace ".45 caliber M3 submachineguns and M9 pistols..." This does not sound like a weapon designed or intended to accurately engage a target more than a quarter of a mile away. I may be wrong but there are better AR variants for this type of distance shooting.


Chris

 

[Dench]

I have little doubt that the 5.56 round can travel 3,600 meters, but where is it going to land?

I'm not sure what a "Point Target" and "Area Target" means.

point targets are things like people, or small objects that require good aim to hit. (your shooting at a specific point)

area targets are large things like vehicles or large windows or large holes in objects, etc. (your shooting at a general area)

 

[drgrant]

The above link suggests that it will replace ".45 caliber M3 submachineguns and M9 pistols..." This does not sound like a weapon designed or intended to accurately engage a target more than a quarter of a mile away. I may be wrong but there are better AR variants for this type of distance shooting.

I wouldn't limit an M4 to a "100 yard" engagement range, at least not intrinsically. Someone who's actually
serving can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that guys training for infantry roles, etc, don't train
strictly at 100 yards or less.

Of course, how we qualify this changes depending on what one's expectations are out of the rifle. If you want to punch tiny groups at really long ranges,an M4/AR-15 with a 16" or less barrel is probably not going to be the thing to do it with. That being said, accuracy should be pretty damned good at 100-200 yards, with the main limiters being the sights, ammo, and trigger.

-Mike

 

[tele_mark]

I pretty much suck as a shooter, but I can easily take out head-sized balloons at 200 yards from a kneeling position with my 16" DPMS and iron sites. The groups are big, but all the hits on an IDPA practice target would put someone down.

 

[Kaos116]

I have little doubt that the 5.56 round can travel 3,600 meters, but where is it going to land?

This being an Army test prep. It's telling the soldier. Be aware of what is behind your target for some distance as the 5.56 will travel 3600 meters. Of course the bullet will have dropped many many feet. Think safety. Some of these guys only shooting expirence is coming from video games.

I'm not sure what a "Point Target" and "Area Target" means.

Point Target = (DOD, NATO) A precise target of small dimensions.
Area Target = (DOD, NATO) A target consisting of an area rather than a single point.

This wasn't realy answering the OPs question. I was just adding to the effective range of an M4.

I don't have an M4 style AR so again I can't answer the OP. But it wouldn't matter if I did. All my rifles can out shoot me.

But in an attempt to answer the OP.

check out the Appleseed project:http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

They are shooting an AQT and shooting a 4moa. A few people are doing it with M4gerys. So, a 12" pattern at 200 yards might need a bit of tweaking.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Dick]

Thanks to all for the information - it was very helpful. With the sights on the M4 I'd say it would take a very good shooter to hit a man-sized target consistently at 500 yards, even with no crosswind and even if you knew the range with some accuracy. I don't doubt there are those out there who can do it, but I'll bet they're few and far between.

 

[M1911]

Thanks to all for the information - it was very helpful. With the sights on the M4 I'd say it would take a very good shooter to hit a man-sized target consistently at 500 yards, even with no crosswind and even if you knew the range with some accuracy. I don't doubt there are those out there who can do it, but I'll bet they're few and far between.

I never tried it with stock sights and/or a shorty AR on the 600 yard range. In the hands of a good shooter, my 20" Armalite Golden Eagle (standard carry-handle configuration, but with heavy barrel, NM sights, NM trigger) can hit the 10-ring every time at 600 yards with Federal Gold Match 69gr. If I recall correctly, Randy E. at WSA made Master using Armalite Golden Eagle.

I was not a great Service Rifle shooter, but I was generally able to keep it within the 8-ring if the wind cooperated. Of course, that was a relatively large target, that wasn't moving, was very high contrast, at a known distance, I was prone, with a NM sling, and on a one-way range.

 

[FunYun]

IIRC the .mil expects about 3MOA from their rifles, with most being about 2-3MOA.

People with good ammo report 1-2MOA, and if properly set up, an AR-15 will shoot 1MOA or less all day long.

You sound like your shooting 6moa, which isn't bad for a first time. Some guns a picky about what they eat, and some eat whatever you feed it.

Definitely check out AR15.com, specifically http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=3

 

[hminsky]

The iron sights on a 20" are significantly longer sight radius than the 16", and it makes a noticeable difference to me in accuracy that I can achieve. I don't know about using a scope though, it probably does not make very much difference what the barrel length is.

 

[Executive]

Great thing about this forum, good information gets passed around, opinions shared, and excepting a few individuals, your opinion is accepted as just that, your opinion. I learned a few things from this thread, but I'm sticking to my premise that there are much better AR variants than the M4 for the accuracy the OP seemed to be looking for. Nice job, guys.


Chris

 

[Dick]

I agree - nice job. But I wasn't really looking for any particular accuracy. As I said in my original post, I've got plenty of scoped bolt action rifles in various calibers that provide all the accuracy I can handle and I didn't buy the M4 thinking that it was going to be some sort of tack driver, given the rather crude iron sights, somewhat uncomfortable stock, and abysmal (by target rifle standards) trigger. I know there are lots of AR variants that are made to be accurate and an out-of-the-box Bushmaster M4 is not one of them. I just bought it to have some fun with, and was only trying to get some idea of the accuracy potential for a "good but not great" shooter, which I did, thanks to everyone who contributed.

 

[smitty]

M-4

For your M4 copy, I'm going to give you what is considered current USMC doctrine.
A 14.5 inch M4 is about a 300 yard weapon.
And a 20 inch M-16A4 is about a 600 yard weapon.

My guess is that you have a 16 inch Bushmaster and it's good to about 400 yards.

smitty

 

[Dick]

My guess is that you have a 16 inch Bushmaster . . .

Thanks for that info, smitty. FYI, the standard Mass-legal Bushmaster M4 has a 14.5" barrel, with the permanently attached muzzle brake bringing the total length up to the non-SBR 16". I'm sure the brake doesn't help accuracy, and may even hurt it slightly, so for performance purposes it would be 14.5".

 

[Nickle]

A decent shooter with a military M4A1and M855 should be able to get a reasonable number of hits out to and beyond 300 meters.

The current Army qualification course goes out to 300 meters.

We no longer use M16's in my unit, for the most part, we are authorized M4A1's these days.

I have seen 16" barreled AR's shoot 4 MOA, with regular 62 grain ammo and iron sights. It isn't hard, but, it does take some training and practice.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I have little doubt that the 5.56 round can travel 3,600 meters, but where is it going to land?

I'm not sure what a "Point Target" and "Area Target" means.

The above link suggests that it will replace ".45 caliber M3 submachineguns and M9 pistols..." This does not sound like a weapon designed or intended to accurately engage a target more than a quarter of a mile away. I may be wrong but there are better AR variants for this type of distance shooting.


Chris

I am a SDM Instructor and most students coming to this training are taught to get center mass hits on the E target from irons to 500 meters.

 

[PappyM3]

I am a SDM Instructor and most students coming to this training are taught to get center mass hits on the E target from irons to 500 meters.

… that guy’s post was from 2008.

What SDM course? Given your mention of 500 meters, I’m thinking USMC? But the USMC 500 meter target is not an E-type target.