ACR and SCAR legit piston guns?

[NuCentMAn]

Really? So you don't care about whether they are reliable, accurate, ergonomic or balanced? How would they be "on par with" AR15 piston rifles without considering those issues?

Good call, I did contradict myself.

I'd ammend that by stating that I presume that ACR and SCAR are more reliable and durable etc. than what I am currently running based on what I've learned about them so far, but are they on the level of the established fan favorites of the type. I don't want to go the trouble of finding some examples to borrow, or rent without conferring with the knowledgeable as to whether or not they are of equal quality

 

[vellnueve]

I'm not looking to find out any of those things at this time, my question essentially is whether or not the ACR or SCAR are on par with the predominant piston system rifles in the market, namely LWRCI and LMT, and if the collective opinion was that they are then I respect those offering their opinions enough to use them in my decision making.

The predominant piston system rifles in the market are AK variants, and it's not close. After that you have FAL and HK clones.

The whole piston AR thing is really a very tiny segment of the market.

 

[TheFaz]

Well instead of becoming another member of the semantics police I'll recommend you go check out lightfighter.net and in the Primary Weapons forum you'll see a great thread on the SCAR by an owner with information I think you'll find useful in your search. There's also another thread by an engineer in that forum that goes into the piston design, it was quite technical but very informative. I'd go provide links but I'm lazy and I'm sure you can find them. I haven't found anything similar about the ACR, if you happen to let me know.

 

[glide]

Sig 556's can be had for well under $1000. And some places are still having the promotion where you get a free 522.

That blows away the SCAR and ACR for MA anyway.

 

[M1911]

Sig 556's can be had for well under $1000. And some places are still having the promotion where you get a free 522.

That blows away the SCAR and ACR for MA anyway.

I'm curious, why do you say that? Have you shot the SCAR or ACR? I've heard some mixed reports about the 556, but don't have any firsthand experience.

 

[Youradolt]

Sig 556's can be had for well under $1000. And some places are still having the promotion where you get a free 522.

That blows away the SCAR and ACR for MA anyway.

I not to fond of a gun that fell apart at the shot show(safety was broken off)

 

[NuCentMAn]

some places are still having the promotion where you get a free 522.

I wouldn't ignore that, can you post who is running this promo?

 

[Blitz1]

I'm curious, why do you say that? Have you shot the SCAR or ACR? I've heard some mixed reports about the 556, but don't have any firsthand experience.

I have a Sig 556 and I love it. I haven't had any issues with it at all with well over 1000 rounds through it. I've heard mixed reports about every rifle. It's called the internet.

I not to fond of a gun that fell apart at the shot show(safety was broken off)

Got a cite for that?

 

[glide]

I'm curious, why do you say that? Have you shot the SCAR or ACR? I've heard some mixed reports about the 556, but don't have any firsthand experience.

I've shot an ACR and I would never spend anywhere near $2K for it. For all that plastic, it sure is heavy. And I do not like the fact the pistol grip is molded to the lower.

I've shot the SCAR and I like it a lot. It's an awesome gun. But it's also going to run you over $2K and you're going to have to ruin the stock and muzzle device to be able to own it in MA.

All that said; a $1000 Sig556 + a free 522 for plinking makes way more sense to me. I have 2 556's and have had zero problems with either of them.

 

[glide]

I wouldn't ignore that, can you post who is running this promo?

CDNN is and has the best prices I've seen. When I got mine they didn't have the SCM model and would not ship to MA. I got a patrol SWAT + 522, had them shipped to NH, paid $100 total for the transfers and to have them made MA compliant.

 

[NuCentMAn]

Not that familiar with the 556, what did you have to have changed to make compliant? Did it have a muzzle device and adjustable stock that had to be swapped out? I've seen the model that is shipped compliant and would prefer something other than bull barrel if possible.

 

[TheFaz]

I've got two piston 5.56 rifles, a SIG 556 and an MSAR STG-556 (AUG clone). Both have 1000 rds apiece through them with no issues. I bought my SIG for $850 off of gunbroker brand new, my STG was around $1000. So for the price of a SCAR or ACR you could get both rifles. I'm partial to the AUG as I really like the balance and handling of the rifle. That being said, the 556 is very nice to shoot, not muzzle heavy at all unlike what the internet gun gurus would have you believe, and is IMO the best deal out there in a 5.56 semi-auto rifle, piston or AR.

 

[glide]

Not that familiar with the 556, what did you have to have changed to make compliant? Did it have a muzzle device and adjustable stock that had to be swapped out? I've seen the model that is shipped compliant and would prefer something other than bull barrel if possible.

If you get anything other than the SCM model, you will have to prevent the stock from collapsing AND folding, as well as swap out/pin the muzzle device. It comes with a flash hider by default.

 

[LittleCalm]

If you get anything other than the SCM model, you will have to prevent the stock from collapsing AND folding, as well as swap out/pin the muzzle device. It comes with a flash hider by default.

The 556 DMR (21" barrel -- it is not a carbine) is MA compliant from the factory. Magpul stock. Nothing on the end of the barrel.

 

[PaulD]

I'm about ready to take the training wheels off and trade in my fisher price "my first AR" and step up to a more quality carbine. I'm liking the piston concept, shot a bunch of piston guns but haven't yet shot the new space guns. In the humble yet informed opinions of the NES AR jury, should these rifles be in the same category as LWRC or LMT, or even top quality DI carbines such as DD, Spikes, Colt, and Noveske?

P.S. loving the LWRC M6A2 and A3, leaning that way right now, just don't know if ACR and Scar deserve some conideration. Will just be using it for range play and random woods fun in the northern states, if OK to use autos may take a stab at coyote season somewhere, but I really like the fact that the barrells are meant to last much longer than DI guns and the values stay very steady.

Thanks

Like some of the others have said, I don't know what you mean by "legit". Yes, they are gas piston operated rifles and they are very good designs. In some ways they're probably better designs than the piston ARs like the LWRC and LMT (which have both proven to be very good). I also dont' know what you mean by the barrels are meant to last longer than DI guns.

Anyway, I own a Robinson XCR which is very similar to the SCAR and ACR in a lot of ways. I think the piston aspect is very nice (easy to clean, easy to field strip, can adjust the gas to optimize recoil vs. feeding) and the ergonomics are excellent. I generally prefer it to an AR. The only part that gives me pause about it is that the company is both small and not known for the best customer support (I also like HKs so obviously I have a complex of some sort). FN at least should have very good support but I can't speak for Bushmaster's support of the ACR.

I have handled a SCAR and while I thought it was nice, I preferred my XCR.

 

[M1911]

I have handled a SCAR and while I thought it was nice, I preferred my XCR.

How would you compare them? What was it about the SCAR that you didn't like?

 

[PaulD]

How would you compare them? What was it about the SCAR that you didn't like?

Well, I held it for about 15 minutes, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

- The XCR has the bolt release at the front of the trigger guard within easy reach of my trigger finger. I think the placement is absolutely pisser. I need to put a Magpul BAD lever on my AR to try and mimic this.
- The SCAR I tried had the charging handle on the right where the XCR has it on the left. I believe the charging handle can be moved to the other side so maybe not a big deal. The XCR's doesn't reciprocate whereas the SCAR's does. So I'll give the XCR a minor win here.
- The SCAR is a bit fat, bulky and feels plasticky compared to the XCR. On the latter, I realize polymer is very strong, tough stuff and works well but the XCR is made of pretty beefy metal (the lower is a quite thick forging) and it feels nice.
- The SCAR did have the advantage on cheek weld. The stock seemed nice.
- the XCR has a lot better trigger (assuming their 2nd gen trigger). The XCR is around 4lbs for trigger pull and the SCAR is around 6lbs.

All of the above are mostly minor points and I should really fire the thing before I fully judge. I do trust FN more though and wish some big, reliable company would buy the XCR design.

One design that looks really nice is the new Beretta ARX160. Unfortunately it's not available for civilians yet.

 

[NuCentMAn]

I also dont' know what you mean by the barrels are meant to last longer than DI guns.

Many of the dealers I spoke with who currently carry Piston AR's pretty much unanimously espoused longer barrel life as a selling point of piston system guns in direct comparison to DI guns. One Shop owner, and former Marine, speculated that the barrell coating coupled withthe Piston gas block helps keep the barrell cooler than a DI system weapon and increases its service life. I defer to his expertise. He may have been speaking specifically about LWRC though, because that's what I was looking at, at the time. He is also an authorized LWRCI dealer, reseller, what have you, and he seemed to have a script down pretty good on their products.

 

[PaulD]

Many of the dealers I spoke with who currently carry Piston AR's pretty much unanimously espoused longer barrel life as a selling point of piston system guns in direct comparison to DI guns. One Shop owner, and former Marine, speculated that the barrell coating coupled withthe Piston gas block helps keep the barrell cooler than a DI system weapon and increases its service life. I defer to his expertise. He may have been speaking specifically about LWRC though, because that's what I was looking at, at the time. He is also an authorized LWRCI dealer, reseller, what have you, and he seemed to have a script down pretty good on their products.

If anything, I'd think that a piston design would make the barrel get hotter as it's concentrating the heat down at the gas block, where the piston is. I could be wrong though.

LWRC barrels do have an excellent reputation.

 

[BillyBoy]

Not sure if we'll ever see this rifle in the US but if it does show up, it will blow away the ACR and SCAR in my opinion.

Info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_ARX_160
http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy#p/search/1/l2bW0vJi83k (Have to go towards the end of the video to hear the Beretta rep talk about it and demo it's features.)

 

[snwbrdr435]

I'm looking into getting another ACR.

 

[glide]

Not sure if we'll ever see this rifle in the US but if it does show up, it will blow away the ACR and SCAR in my opinion.

Info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_ARX_160
http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy#p/search/1/l2bW0vJi83k (Have to go towards the end of the video to hear the Beretta rep talk about it and demo it's features.)

It was at SHOT this year and they will be available commercially in the US. I would absolutely buy one of these over a SCAR or ACR.

 

[drgrant]

Not sure if we'll ever see this rifle in the US but if it does show up, it will blow away the ACR and SCAR in my opinion.

It'll only blow them away if it brings the price points way down. The ACR and the SCAR sell for way too much money.

-Mike

 

[PaulD]

It was at SHOT this year and they will be available commercially in the US. I would absolutely buy one of these over a SCAR or ACR.

I'm not seeing how it "blows them away". It's a very cool design that might make sense for a military. I'm not seeing how the features help an individual as compared the the competition. As Mike said, if the price is right though, it'll sell. It's also good to have more options on the market.

Speaking of that market, hopefully CZ will bring their version as well: http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/86-armed-forces-law-enforcement/OS-AUT/CZ_805_BREN_A1.aspx

 

[meth0d]

I'm not seeing how it "blows them away". It's a very cool design that might make sense for a military. I'm not seeing how the features help an individual as compared the the competition. As Mike said, if the price is right though, it'll sell. It's also good to have more options on the market.

Speaking of that market, hopefully CZ will bring their version as well: http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/86-armed-forces-law-enforcement/OS-AUT/CZ_805_BREN_A1.aspx

Who designed the selector markings, doobie? ". .. ....."

 

[glide]

I'm not seeing how it "blows them away". It's a very cool design that might make sense for a military. I'm not seeing how the features help an individual as compared the the competition. As Mike said, if the price is right though, it'll sell. It's also good to have more options on the market.

Speaking of that market, hopefully CZ will bring their version as well: http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/86-armed-forces-law-enforcement/OS-AUT/CZ_805_BREN_A1.aspx

It's significantly lighter, fully ambi (and that includes the charging handle) without tools, true quick change barrel system, etc...

 

[BillyBoy]

It's significantly lighter, fully ambi (and that includes the charging handle) without tools, true quick change barrel system, etc...

This is why! I dunno about you guys but those are all legit major improvements over the ACR/SCAR in my opinion.

 

[vellnueve]

It'll only blow them away if it brings the price points way down. The ACR and the SCAR sell for way too much money.

-Mike

Yep. A Sig 556 price point would be more reasonable.

 

[Blitz1]

Yep. The Sig 556 is an awesome rifle.

I just cleaned my after about 1000 rounds. It just needed lube. Easy to field strip, easy to shoot. Sweet.

I'll buy another one before I ever buy an overly complicated, outdated, inefficient AR.

 

[NuCentMAn]

Anyone had any trigger time or even handled a Sig 516? Searching around the interwebs I've found that some of these can be had for under 1500, and in some cases just over 1000.00.