AK47 and M16 defense

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steyraug

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I'm probably going to open up a can of worms but my friend, an ex military guy, and myself a gun newb were discussing which gun is better.

He claimed from his experience in Iraq that you would need to shoot someone 6x w/ an m4 type rifle to stop them, and w/ an ak47 round just once. I'm aware the m16 is better in long range accuracy, is it a crummy gun for home defense? I told my friend you could probably get hollow points for the m16, but eh what do i know.
 
ITs not great for home defense because in my opinion its range is far too dangerous if you miss. Could it go into the neighbors house etc. They make hollow points, usually lighter weight Varmit Ammo. There is an article I read with reguards to the developement of the 6.8SPC round. Back in 2001 or 2002 (not sure on dates here) The military found they were hitting their human targets with 556 and they kept shooting back. Hence the developement of the 6.8SPC. Supposedly better balistics etc... but the military has yet to adopt it.
 
Small fast bullet < Big slow bullet when it comes to over penetration. You have a better chance of fragmentation in walls and such with a 556, so it makes the neighbor killing argument less valid. I would have no problem using my carbine as a HD firearm.

ETA: buy small I mean light, and by big I mean heavy.
 
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True, I think 556 will go through your own walls more than say the neighbors. Think daughter in the other room, or something like that.

edmorseiii said:
Small fast bullet < Big slow bullet when it comes to over penetration. You have a better chance of fragmentation in walls and such with a 556, so it makes the neighbor killing argument less valid. I would have no problem using my carbine as a HD firearm.
Click to expand...
 
don't get hollow points for a AK unless you want your rifle to jam so you can throw it into the trash.

AKM bullet guides were never meant for hollow points. And it's painfully obvious when you try to run that f'ing garbage.
 
better yet don't use a high-power rifle for HD lol, use a shotgun, any 12ga shot has far less penetration than 5.56x45 OR 7.62x39. and it's slightly harder to miss your target thanks to spread.

Even handguns have a over penetration risk.

the last thing you want is to miss the bad guy and hit a loved one in the next room over. or a neighbor. or both.

and on the AK v.s. AR matter, they're both great guns for their intended purposes, neither are universal guns, and NEITHER ARE PERFECT.
 
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Let's argue over guns with totally different calibers, and fight over which aging weapon is better, and TOTALLY disregard the fact that comparing an AK-47 and an AR-10 makes more sense, or a AR-15 and a AK-74.
 
your friend, the "ex-military guy", had what we in the service call "7.62itis". That is to say, all of us always want what we don't have, and ignore the pitfalls of it. Both the ar-15 (M-16) and the AKM (AK-47) are excellent weapon platforms. They have their strengths and weaknesses. For me, the argument has always boiled down to ergonomics. I don't like the manual of arms for AK pattern rifles, it's a personal thing.
7.62x39 and 5.56x45 can and often will take multiple rounds to stop (as in make dead) a target. Humans are actually harder to stop in a combat style situation than many think; and, short of going full retard with a 7.62 x 51 battle rifle or something of an even larger caliber, well, as we say in the Army "Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting again." Hope that helped.

Romeosierra616 said:
Let's argue over guns with totally different calibers, and fight over which aging weapon is better, and TOTALLY disregard the fact that comparing an AK-47 and an AR-10 makes more sense, or a AR-15 and a AK-74.
Click to expand...

Actually, if we want to nit-pick... The AK-47 fires 7.62x39 while the AR-10 fires 7.62x51, it is a substantial difference.
 
Any rifle cartridge sucks somewhat for home defense because of over penetration, the upside is the guy can't hide or take cover behind a wall. If you live in well populated burbs, neither is good. If you live in sticks, I'd get something that goes through walls in a predictable pattern plus in a free state you can get a better silencer for an AK which could help.

What's this deal about accuracy again? Are we shooting at 500 yards? Not even Al Gore's house is that big.
 
hurley431 said:
Actually, if we want to nit-pick... The AK-47 fires 7.62x39 while the AR-10 fires 7.62x51, it is a substantial difference.
Click to expand...

Well I mean... size wise it's less substantial than comparing a 7.62 to a 5.56 right lol? makes a tad bit more sense right?


8mm Mauser is better than them all anyways... >:)
 
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jmh992003 said:
ITs not great for home defense because in my opinion its range is far too dangerous if you miss. Could it go into the neighbors house etc.
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Baloney. Any round that will reliably ventilate Mongo will penetrate light home construction. But .223 will actually penetrate LESS than many handgun bullets.
 
Romeosierra616 said:
better yet don't use a high-power rifle for HD lol, use a shotgun, any 12ga shot has far less penetration than 5.56x45 OR 7.62x39. and it's slightly harder to miss your target thanks to spread.

Even handguns have a over penetration risk.

the last thing you want is to miss the bad guy and hit a loved one in the next room over. or a neighbor. or both.
Click to expand...

Your shotgun is going to penetrate just as much as anything else, unless you are going to dabble in full retardation and suggest using bird shot. I would ask you not to dabble in full retardation, but you have already suggested that the spread will make up for taking a bad shot. Weren't we worried about shooting the baby in the next room or something? Where do you think the shot from your "spread" (if it were to spread that much, which if it did you are pretty far away) is going to go if it doesn't hit the bad guy?

Romeosierra616 said:
Let's argue over guns with totally different calibers, and fight over which aging weapon is better, and TOTALLY disregard the fact that comparing an AK-47 and an AR-10 makes more sense, or a AR-15 and a AK-74.
Click to expand...

Just because they have a similar diameter bullet does not make them even close to comparable.

hurley431 said:
Actually, if we want to nit-pick... The AK-47 fires 7.62x39 while the AR-10 fires 7.62x51, it is a substantial difference.
Click to expand...

It's not nit-picking, it is that substantial.

Romeosierra616 said:
Well I mean... size wise it's less substantial than comparing a 7.62 to a 5.56 right lol? makes a tad bit more sense right?
Click to expand...

Both 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 are intermediate cartridges. 7.62x51 is a rifle cartridge.

M1911 said:
Baloney. Any round that will reliably ventilate Mongo will penetrate light home construction. But .223 will actually penetrate LESS than many handgun bullets.
Click to expand...

This.
 
Romeosierra616 said:
Well I mean... size wise it's less substantial than comparing a 7.62 to a 5.56 right lol? makes a tad bit more sense right?
Click to expand...
No, not at all.

5.56 62gr FMJ muzzle energy 1552 ft-lbs
7.62x39 124gr FMJ muzzle energy 1520 ft-lbs
7.62X51 150gr FMJ muzzle energy 2648 ft-lbs

All figures from here: http://www.federalpremium.com/default.aspx

5.56 NATO and 7.62x39 are intermediate power cartridges. They were both designed to solve the same problem -- firing a battle rifle cartridge like 7.62x51 full-auto in a standard weight rifle (8-10 lbs) is basically uncontrollable. Intermediate power cartridges give you more control in full auto with a reasonable weight rifle, let you carry more ammunition, at the expense of less range.

5.56 NATO is lighter, faster, and flatter shooting, making it easier to hit at distance than 7.62x39, but at the expense of less penetration. 7.62 NATO is in a whole different league.
 
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Woot! Thread revival!

I have not bothered to do my research yet because I am not ready to buy a rifle yet.

But wasn't the 7.62x39 designed to kill where as the 5.56x45 was meant to maim, more or less? I mean I know they both are designed to kill and leave you a horrible mess if you catch one.

I am interested in the comparison of soft tissue damage and cover penetration.

Once I get my LTC I will have to get some of you guys out on the range and we can check this out. Make barricades and some ballistic gel.
 
This may be the most mis-information heavy thread ever until midway down the last page.

MOST cartridges that will go through a person will go through a wall. 5.56 apparently has the slight upper hand here as it goes so fast and has such little mass the even minute hardness of the wall causes it to fragment and tumble much more quickly than a heavier more slowly moving bullet (handgun, or even 7.62X39), thus reducing over-penetration in home defense environment. This is a feature that seems to be somewhat unique and both desirable and undesirable to the round. Your friend was clearly in the army and not the Marines because apparently they can't shoot [wink] Shotguns will penetrate through walls like it's nobodies business. 7.62X51 is in a whole other league than 5.56X45 and 7.62X39.

Mike
 
This is a good excuse to have both an AR and an AK. There is a tool for every purpose. Get one of each. Shoot them both a lot. Understand what you need it for when you reach into the safe. If I were holed up, the AK. If I were on the run, the AR. If it were a zombie apocalypse I would throw one on each shoulder and head for the sea (zombies can't swim).
 
steyraug said:
He claimed from his experience in Iraq that you would need to shoot someone 6x w/ an m4 type rifle to stop them, and w/ an ak47 round just once.
Click to expand...

He's full of shit. 300 Blackout for the win.
 
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I don't know the ballistic #s but the x39 retains a greater amount of energy than 5.56
I don't want to be shot by either.....other than hand loaded 762x39 hand loaded ammo from my friends Remington 799 mini Mauser the x39 looses the accuracy battle.
 

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