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AK47 and M16 defense
- Thread starter steyraug
- Start date
That Guy
Banned
I think some of the beliefs military people have about AR versus AK as based on incomplete information and sometimes wrong info.
Lots of military guys think the 7.62 from an AK is the same as our M240B, which is clearly not the case (you would be surprised how many think this). So when they see our machine guns knock someone down even when hit with one bullet, and the M4 taking more than one shot, they assume the AK47 will do the same thing.
The other problem is seeing Americans get hit and stopped one shot with an AK while a Taliban gets his three times and keeps moving. Problem is that one shot that stops the American soldier is because of body armor a stopping shot it is either a head shot or a leg shot, both of which drop a person fairly quickly. Whereas the three shots you put in a Taliban can all be torso shots which don't necessarily drop you on the spot if it doesn't hit spine or heart.
Bottom line, as we've discussed so many times before, stopping power is a bit of a myth - hitting vital spots is more important than caliber (for the most part). That said, given the choice, I still take the lighter, longer range, more accurate weapon that I can carry more ammo for.
Lots of military guys think the 7.62 from an AK is the same as our M240B, which is clearly not the case (you would be surprised how many think this). So when they see our machine guns knock someone down even when hit with one bullet, and the M4 taking more than one shot, they assume the AK47 will do the same thing.
The other problem is seeing Americans get hit and stopped one shot with an AK while a Taliban gets his three times and keeps moving. Problem is that one shot that stops the American soldier is because of body armor a stopping shot it is either a head shot or a leg shot, both of which drop a person fairly quickly. Whereas the three shots you put in a Taliban can all be torso shots which don't necessarily drop you on the spot if it doesn't hit spine or heart.
Bottom line, as we've discussed so many times before, stopping power is a bit of a myth - hitting vital spots is more important than caliber (for the most part). That said, given the choice, I still take the lighter, longer range, more accurate weapon that I can carry more ammo for.
No.
Correct.
Incorrect...it all depends on "shot placement".
This is obviously under debate as seen in this thread. My recommendation is a 12 guage pump shotgun, then experiement with different loads...i.e buckshot, #4, etc.
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I use a HK91 for HD.
ChevyGuy91
NES Member
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I sold all my guns at a buy back, my plan is to yank my crank until the police show up.
Was easier to pull M14's with their 7.62x51mm goodness and put a new stock on them.
Originally maybe. The twist rate of the barrels back then was about half what the twist rate is now.
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
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We had experiences in Iraq where the 5.56 didn't put people down. It happens. However, I had a buddy who was in the Navy and was a door-gunner during Viet Nam. The story, as he tells it, had him reloading his M2 (.50 cal, belt-fed machine gun) when an NVA soldier began to charge from a nearby treeline. A Crew Chief shot this guy in the chest with an M1A, only to have the guy get up, get shot again, get up again, then get shot a third time, all center mass, with a .308 round. (He went on to say, with a wry smile, if he'd gotten up again, ole mah-deuce was ready to go).
Point of the story, there is no assurance that any one type of round will kill somebody with a single shot. Aim true, fill'em with enough lead, and the perp will go down.
Point of the story, there is no assurance that any one type of round will kill somebody with a single shot. Aim true, fill'em with enough lead, and the perp will go down.
I recall on a television show (Weaponology, maybe?) that the 5.45 was nicknamed "the rifle with the poison bullet" because it was designed to replicate the tumble damage of the 5.56.
True with a vengeance, but if your using buckshot you'll have to be close to the wall. #00 or #0 or #1 buck shot could easily go through the exterior wall of your house...but it won't then travel another 75 to 100 feet then penetrate your neighbors wall...and then have enough energy to be fatal to a bystander. Light weight spherical projectiles have really low BC's (sub 0.050) and slow down in a hurry. Rifle bullets are heavier, faster, and have 6x to 8x the BC values. They preserve their energy over much longer distances.
This is the primary safety advantage of a shotgun. I agree that it doesn't help the innocent in the next room at all.
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Not really the question at hand.
One will do more damage to flesh and cover than the other.
Why does someone go with a 9mm over a .380? They are roughly the same size right? No, one out performs the other in those categories.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Wrong on both counts, at least as a blanket statement. It depends on the bullet being used.
For example at distances under 100 yards (or somewhat more even) M855 ball often will just blow right through someone without tumbling. On the other hand M193 will tumble a bit when it hits flesh... and things like MK262 Mod0/1 and other OTM heavy bullets like 69 or 77 gr SMK's will start to tumble and create damage a lot sooner than M193 will.
For 7.62 x 39, a lot of the commercial FMJ will just blow straight through. On the other hand, supposedly loads like Yugo M67 are more likely to tumble in flesh....
-Mike
It always surprises me when people make such statements about cartridges that are patently untrue, when the information required to refute them is so easily found.
Hydrashock 124 gr 9mm, 1120 FPS, 345 ft-lbs
Hydrashock 90 gr 380, 1000 FPS, 200 ft-lbs
9mm is far more powerful than 380.
All data from:
http://www.federalpremium.com/default.aspx
You are of course, correct. My use of usually and most was probably not definitive enough. M855 and M193 will tumble, however there is a 15% chance neither will fragment even within 100 yards, even when tumbling. Also they are not designed to fragment so you cannot rely on that wounding mechanism. M193 will give you a hair more range before it ice picks. MK318 is not yaw dependent, and has better barrier performance than the OTM you mentioned. The M67 you mentioned is in fact an early yaw 7.62. Generally Military cartridges rely on yaw to increase temporary wound cavity to the point of tearing soft tissue. If you hit in-elastic tissue and get yaw, you can get a nasty wound. No tumble or elastic tissue - not so much.
Cap
NES Member
Yea, im confused. Hes agreeing with you.
Cap
NES Member
No no. I think you are both saying the 9mm is superior but he doesn't think you said that.
![[pot]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/037.gif "Stir the pot [pot]")
