AR-15, 16" Spike's upper, A2 stock, FTF - NOT short stroking....

inerlogic

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ok, so here's what's been happening with this thing.... AWS Lower, Rifle buffer, tube and spring, A2 stock, spike's 16" upper, brand spanking new.

took the upper home, cleaned, lubed, inspected.... the gas rings were super tight, i could barely get the bolt out of the BC...
"flicking" the BCG, the bolt wouldn't extend....

i have 520 rounds through the upper (400 AE 5.56 XM193 and 120 PMC Bronze)

"flicking" is easier now, dis-assembly and reassembly still takes some effort (those rings are still tight)

to get through a 30 round magazine i'd have to rack the charging handle at least 4-5 times with the PMC, more like 3 times with the XM193....
the round fires, empty is ejected, the bolt strips off a round and then stops on it's was into battery.... the round doesn't appear to be getting caught on the feed ramps, but that's where it's stopping..... so, it's not short stroking, it's just not coming all the way back.....

i put the upper on my cousin's lower, he has a carbine length spring with an H2 buffer (lighter than the rifle buffer) and the thing ran fine....

(his upper on my lower would feed every round in the mag, except the last round..... the last round would get caught up, don't remember what make his upper is, think he picked it up at 4S, he says his upper is known for being over gassed.....)

so..... before i drop money i don't have on a new stock, buffer tube, spring and buffer.....
anyone else have an experience like this? i emails spike's and the guy that wrote me back was all "hey, if you're going to get a carbine tube, get our powdered buffer to combat bolt bounce"

they got the sales guys answering the tech emails over there?

anyone have a new spike's and run into this tight gas ring business? how many rounds should it take these things to break in?
the last AR type rifle i had was an M16A2 with tens of thousands of rounds through it.... so.. i don't know how new ones are supposed to act, and according to all the posts i've read on the AR forums (thanks google) the carbine should LOVE the rifle buffer and spring, shouldn't be an issue at all, blah blah yadda yadda.....

any help would be appreciated..... failing that.....
anyone wanna trade a massified 16" upper for a 20" HBAR? :)
 
If you take a road trip out to the shop I will take a look for no charge. We also stock buffer tubes stocks springs and buffers. Thanks
John
413 579 1994
 
Does this happen with many different mags?
Will it feed smoothly with a full mag when you first charge the round?
Does the BCG move smoothly when you rack it with no rounds?

Check the gas key and block to make sure its not leaking.

When the rounds eject, where do the go? forward 1-2 o'clock? back 4-5 O'clock?
 
Also try and cycle a round or two manually to see if the feed ramps are marking the projectile up... I had this issue which was solved by taking the corners off the feed ramp
 
If your upper runs fine on your cousin's lower, nothing's wrong with it. Look into your lower: out of spec action spring, burrs inside the buffer tube, etc. Also, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but maybe you have a CAR spring in your rifle tube? This is what I found on Arfcom:

TECHNICAL MANUAL
ARMY NO. 9-1005-319-23&P
AIR FORCE TO 11W3-5-5-42

RIFLE: 11 3/4 Inches (29 85 cm) minimum to 13 1/2 inches (34 29 cm)maximum

CARBINE: 10 1/16 inches (25.56 cm) minimum to 11 1/4 inches (28.58 cm) maximum

As you can see. long CAR spring and short rifle spring will look almost identical.
 
Does this happen with many different mags?

i've got two exactly the same, happens with both of them, i tried a vintage mag from Lip at the car shoot, same issue, and some new pre-bans from a cousin of mine, same issue....


Will it feed smoothly with a full mag when you first charge the round?
Does the BCG move smoothly when you rack it with no rounds?
Check the gas key and block to make sure its not leaking.

1) yes.
2) racking with no rounds/no mag it's pretty smooth.... i racked it a bunch to spread the loob (clp)
3) nice n tight.

When the rounds eject, where do the go? forward 1-2 o'clock? back 4-5 O'clock?

the end up in a nice neat pile around 4-5 o'clock


All I can add is that my Spikes middy runs great on a carbine/H2 buffer setup.

that's the setup my cousin has, and it ran with his lower (tested it with three mags, 30 once and 20 twice)

Also try and cycle a round or two manually to see if the feed ramps are marking the projectile up...

hrmm.... i'll try this after work.... need to go to Woodcock to renew my permit anyway.....

If your upper runs fine on your cousin's lower, nothing's wrong with it.

yup, that was the reason for testing it, and why i'm pretty sure it's not a feed ramp hangup issue... though the rounds are stopping AT the feed ramps....


Look into your lower: out of spec action spring, burrs inside the buffer tube, etc. Also, I don't want to insult your intelligence, but maybe you have a CAR spring in your rifle tube? This is what I found on Arfcom:

TECHNICAL MANUAL
ARMY NO. 9-1005-319-23&P
AIR FORCE TO 11W3-5-5-42

RIFLE: 11 3/4 Inches (29 85 cm) minimum to 13 1/2 inches (34 29 cm)maximum

CARBINE: 10 1/16 inches (25.56 cm) minimum to 11 1/4 inches (28.58 cm) maximum

As you can see. long CAR spring and short rifle spring will look almost identical.

i purchased the tube, spring and buffer from an NES dealer (who i won't name because i don't blame, and by right, when i ordered the stuff my intention was to get a full length upper, when i settled for the 16" internet research indicated no problem using a mid and rifle combo) Tom Miller from Spike's emailed me and suggested it might be the wrong spring (Car vs Rifle) or a rifle spring that's weak or too short....

Miller also suggested a tight bolt in the BCG wouldn't be an issue and should loosen up after "a few thousand rounds"
 
picked up an m4 stock set and heavy buffer from Remsport, still having issues :/
this time i shot some crappy cell phone video to show everyone what's going on....

looks like the bolt carrier itself (not the bolt) is getting caught by the bolt catch....
even when there are rounds in the mag.....

smacking the rifle on the side sometimes clears it... sometimes it takes a charging handle rack.....

i wish i had the time to drive out to Remsport to take John up on his offer.. i may have to make the time....

[video=youtube_share;ioGfXLPMNSA]http://youtu.be/ioGfXLPMNSA[/video]
 
can you show your bolt catch? it should pivot freely in the notch and you installed the spring and detent on the bolt catch properly? seems like thats the source of your issue...
 
yup, bolt catch moves freely.... the spring is strong.... the roll pin did give me trouble..... i ended up folding it in half the first time....
then i brought it somewhere and had them put a roll pin in..... so i'm assuming it was done correctly... i trust the shop's work....
 
if you want to swing by the gun store in rehoboth i will gladly look at it owner is a cool guy and a former marine so hes pretty good with this stuff too...
 
It looks like you are supporting the rifle on the magazine in the video. I really dont know if this will cause the issues you are having or if you shoot this way all the time but I have had rifle failure when accidently resting the mag on a table like that.
 
fishhawk357 said:
It looks like you are supporting the rifle on the magazine in the video. I really dont know if this will cause the issues you are having or if you shoot this way all the time but I have had rifle failure when accidently resting the mag on a table like that.

Nah.... I was just holding it down that way for the camera....
 
did you put the upper together yourself or did you buy it complete? i had something similar happen when i used my idiot basement gun shop method of securing the upper receiver with a towel and sticking it in a small bench vise to put the barrel on. yeah... squished the receiver a bit. pretty dumb of me. in the end i corrected it but it behaved a lot like in your video.
 
atilla said:
did you put the upper together yourself or did you buy it complete? i had something similar happen when i used my idiot basement gun shop method of securing the upper receiver with a towel and sticking it in a small bench vise to put the barrel on. yeah... squished the receiver a bit. pretty dumb of me. in the end i corrected it but it behaved a lot like in your video.

Nope.... Bought the upper complete with BCG, it's a Spike's LE.... At the range now after a good cleaning and sonic bath, still jammed 5 out of 30 rounds.... Gonna swap out the FCG and bolt catch.....
 
what has spikes said? sounds like there's just something wrong with the upper. got another upper you can test your lower with? if not and you feel like making the trip out my way you can use one of mine just to try it out.
 
atilla said:
what has spikes said? sounds like there's just something wrong with the upper. got another upper you can test your lower with? if not and you feel like making the trip out my way you can use one of mine just to try it out.

Spike's said it was because i was running a rifle buffer stock and spring on the car upper.... So i put an m4 stock and heavy buffer on by their recommendation, didn't solve the problem....
Then it wqs suggested i'd used a bad LPK.... I was given some new parts to try.... Ran 30 rounds... It stopped 5 or 6 times.... I *just* now ran 2 mags of 20.... No issues.... But now i'm out of ammo..... This upper has run on other lowers no problem....
 
i might be meeting up with another member this saturday to play with ARs after we do some work at my club--you're welcome to join us and we can check your rifle out.
 
Camping wed-sun this week.... Gonna head to sippican after work (unless it's rediculously hot and humid...)
I'm thinking it's a weak bolt catch spring... And the thing is bouncing up under recoil.....

atilla said:
i might be meeting up with another member this saturday to play with ARs after we do some work at my club--you're welcome to join us and we can check your rifle out.
 
PM me later in the day, i may actually have an extra spring. i can throw it in an envelope and send it to you, i have like half a LPK sitting in a box somewhere.
 
kewl... not looking forward to driving that damned pin out and in again though....
the thought actually crossed my mind "do i REALLY need a bolt catch?"

i mean.. i can't have a flash hider or bayonet... might as well take the bolt catch off too... ;)


anyone who wants to send me stuff, feel free to ship it to:

John O'Brien
16 Sconticut Neck Rd #323
Fairhaven, MA. 02719

a very gun friendly UPS store :)
 
atilla said:
haha. not the purple polish people punisher!

Hrmmm... Jamming up even while holding the bolt catch.... So... Yeh.... Caught on the feed ramps? Fine... Yeh.... I can deal with that.... But.... Uh.... Ran fine on another lower..... So that should have nothing to do with the ramps..... Ugh.....
 
Not the cause of the original problem.... But i just took the damned bolt apart and one of the gas rings was twisted like a bread tie..... I was planning to shoot the thing at Sippican tomorrow.... Maybe now i'll bring my SKS and shoot AT it......
 
did you figure this out yet? skimming this thread it sounded like a problem i had that i was bashing my head against a wall because of

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...AR-feeding-issues-*problem-solved*?highlight=

i'll save you from reading it, look at your upper feed ramps where they transition to the barrel extention feed ramps, my extention ramps where a HAIR higher, causing the round to hang up and lose momentum and jam

your problem sounds similar, but its something worth checking

good luck!
 
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