Area 7 USPSA match- Rochester, NY

[Rob Boudrie]

Rob,
I know, I'm showing my age here. But, the Miller/ S&W matches had the best prize structure bar none of any match I shot over the years. It would be very difficult to duplicate it today, I think.

Their quantity of booty was HUGE, whcih makes it much easier to come up with a policy that is based on "placement in class" .... and still has room to give several guns to "D" class shooters.

 

[38supermatt]

Rob- I dont think you're right about people feeling they can't compete and they ought to save themselves the trouble and just send a top shooter a check, if they pay a lot for a match and don't have a chance to win a gun in a lottery system. I believe your survey a few years ago shows that we are largely a group of competitors who aren't looking for a lottery system, but a performance based award structure.
A full 82% of respondents felt prizes should be awarded based on finish, either within class or overall placement. Only 17% wanted door prizes. Which I would assume is raffle style.
Of those who responded, 63% believed matches which awarded cash and prizes should cost between $100 to $150
So it seems the vast majority of the Area 7 shooters have no issue with prizes being awarded on merit, and they have no problem paying at least $100 for one of those matches.
The demographics of the majority of our competitors aren't people who are trying to scrape some pennies together to come shoot a match, the March/April 06 Front Sight published that 73% of competitors household income is over $60,000, with over half being greater than $75,000, so it isn't like the majority of competitors are saying, oh, I can't afford the $125 match fee if I can't offset it with a prize to win that I may be able to sell to offset my costs. If we use the Area 7 match, which was advertised as a plaque only match at $100, as an example, and turn back to the 2003 survey, we see 92% would feel the cost was too high for a match not awarding cash or prizes.
It's often times the match fee itself isn't even the most expensive figure in the shooting match equation.
The hotel at Little Big Match cost over $160, for one night, at a little 2 star hotel in the middle of nowhere NY. I know the vehicle Steve took up to the Area 7 cost him $80 in gas, one way, just to get from out here in MA to Rochester. Tolls were another $25 or so. Majors are lost brass matches, so figure about another $25 in brass, food and drinks, time off of work, add all those up and the cost of the match looks pretty small at that point. And finishing high enough to win a gun at the Nationals probably means you've gotten something you could have bought anyway, had you just bought the gun rather than spent the money on airfare, match, hotel, car rental, food, and ammo.

In summary I believe each match that has an awards policy based on raffle prizes, completely ignores the very wishes, and feedback, of the majority of the membership, who are the same competitors the match is marketed toward. We are going to show up and shoot the match, regardless of the prize structure, regardless of the price, because it is the match, and we don't want to miss it.

Do I have a different solution other than the choices already discussed? I don't know. Perhaps an optional purse fee could be collected. Say the match fee is $75, and there is an optional purse of $25 which stays in class, and could only be won by someone who played it. (AND who is not a foreign competitor, as their classifications are a topic for another time) Perhaps that's an answer, I don't know. I just think the raffle is contrary to our sport. We move through our classes based on achievement. Our classes are earned, so should our prizes be.

This post is not intended to be critical of the Area 7 Championship. I enjoyed the match, and as far as I'm concerned, $100 is reasonable for a 10 stage, well staffed match with good stages, a fair amount of props, and really fast results.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Just a note on Area 7 Championship Prize policy -

It's the match staff, not the area director, that staffs the stages; builds the props and makes the match happen. I don't try to manage the prize process - this is the match director's call - all I insist on in this area is that the match deal with competitors and sponsors in a honorable manner.

So, I don't really know what next year's prize policy will be. Once I have a venue and match director lined up, I'll ask him or her.

 

[38supermatt]

Rob- I know all those duties aren’t yours. I’m certainly not saying you did a bad job with anything there. I believe you accomplished your goal of competitors and sponsors being dealt with in an honorable manner. I think you’ve done a great service for the Area, and USPSA in the years that you’ve been director, I’m glad you’re our Area’s director. I was just simply saying I disagreed with the statement that many shooters would not be interested in attending matches with a prize policy that favors winning because they believe they wouldn’t have a chance at anything. As a basis for my disagreement I was using the survey of competitors, along with the demographic survey. I also was not saying that I didn’t think the Area 7 staff or match director did a bad job at that match, as I said, I enjoyed it, thought it was well designed, and well run, and certainly worth the entry fee. In a previous post I did make mention of a BS raffle prize policy, not specifically in regards to this match, but in general. I didn’t even know there were prizes until mentioned at the shooters meeting. I was under the assumption this was trophy only, as advertised, and had every intention of going regardless of my view of raffle policies.

I am curious if we’d even have higher participation if there were more merit based awards, even at the local level. Largely gone is even the token free shoot at most of the local matches. I believe we’ve lost plenty of competitors over the years to, “well, I spent all this money, devoted all this time, won, and got nothing.” Granted our section is largely at capacity for the current clubs which participate, but when I listen to guys like John and Hal, we used to have a whole mess of active clubs. And I wonder if we still would if there was more of a reward for all the participants to work towards. Although chances are the lack of help is what caused clubs to fold over the years. And I don’t have a solution for that, other than, every one of us has to step up in some way and help out if we want our game to survive, and I do believe working towards a reward is an incentive for people to stick around and help. Yes, there is an element of selfishness in that sort of attitude, but that’s human nature.

This post has really gone off topic and is a disservice to the Area 7 match, being placed in the Area 7 thread, so perhaps we should start a new one if anyone wishes to discuss further.

 

[PMD]

Matt,
Check out this thread over at BE it's a similar topic on Prize Tables http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=34965


In my opinion competitiors should be awarded based on the order of their performance (and not by luck of the draw).
I also feel that awards (if possible) should include all divisions and all classes (provided there are enough prizes). The bigger prizes to the top shooters and so on.

On the flip side - I also feel that the people setting up the match do have the right to distribute the prizes as they see fit - I may not agree with how they distribute - but provided they announce how the prizes are to be distributed well in advance - a competitor has the option of not attending if they do not like the prize structure.



Paul

 

[TY43215]

Well, all in all it was a great match. I had a good time with like minded people and didn't hurt myself or anyone else.

Rob, Thank you for all your hard work. It is appreciated. To the match Director and staff, I know I thanked each of you but here it is again. Thanks for all the work it took to put on that match before, during, and after. The match was a success.

As for prizes and awards, being realistic, I did not go for that reason. (If anyone can tell me how to stuff moonclips in that ISHOT mag bag, it would be a big help

)

Over the years I have been fortunate to win a few awards in different venues. As I get older, they are fewer. BUT, DILIGAF???? I think those that put the time and money into winning need to be rewarded with something a little better than lucite. I was happy with how I shot but still feel I didn't shoot well enough to win any prizes. If some day I do, great. If I win in a raffle will I give it back????Yeah,,,right.


I have said before, there needs to be a major raffle for the staff only other than that, prizes to those that win them. Overall, First each division, first each class. First, second, and third place looser gets nothing except lucite or a raffle prize.

But what do I know, I shoot a revolver

Regards,

 

[9X21]

Off topic or not, prizes awarded by placement for finish would likely attract more , if not higher class shooters. this only further defines the performance of all those who attend.
Like it or not, prizes relate to performance.

Fact is only two (OPEN) GM's attended., So Area 7 will not likely count as a classification finish (based USPSA super secret rules). Rob, please correct me if I'm in error.

Unfortunately, All those guys & gals who shot above their current percentage, will not get credit for the feat. So no prizes for them.......


We can probably start a new thread now......