Army opens competition for 7.62 rifle to replace M4

[weekendracer]

I wouldn't be so sure about that...12lbs is a **** ton of extra weight when you're already wearing a flak, Kevlar, assault pack, hydration source, sidearm too possibly. **** 12 extra pounds.

I was going to say, 12 pounds added to the already 100+ in some cases. I've carried an additional 20-30 lbs almost every day, between armor, gun, camelback, other jibberjabber. I did every thing I could to reduce that load. I dropped keepers, cuff case, light holder. I figured between everything I took off my load I was down over a pound. That's when it's dry, going out in the rain was a ordeal I didn't enjoy.

 

[weekendracer]

Doubtful. We own the night with the NVG's. Don't worry about today's soldiers, we are pretty freaking deadly. Ask what is left of the republican guards or the residents of falluja.

It will be interesting when we go against a first world army again. If they have NVG's and all the same basic equipment and a modicum of training. I still bet if the politicians stay out of it, any war we fought would be over in weeks. The gut-wrenching over the highway of death in the first Iraq war tells me it will never happen.

 

[Mountain]

I was listening to a primary and secondary podcast where a bunch of green berets were talking about fighting in the jungle and how its a skill the army has essentially forgotten. None of them wear body armor, helmets, none of that shit.

Cant wait to get into a jungle war and have to bleed to relearn all the lessons you guys bled to learn 60 years ago. Which we ****ing surely will, because the army is too ****ing retarded to slack bullshit 670-1 regulations to improve warfighting capabilities of its people. Cant wait to hump IOTVs, ACH, NVGs, tents, sleep systems, and ****ing PT belts through the jungle. I suspect the end result of the initial engagement would resemble the German Wehrmacht in Russia after Stalingrad, broken men in full retreat leaving a trail of expensive equipment behind us.

I think today's fighters will adapt and carry on.

Gramps fought in the jungles of the Philippines during the 'second coming' when our guys kicked ass. He told me how they dumped all the heavy crap that would either slow you down or make noise. First thing he did was swap a BAR for a Garand. He said after taking a look at the mountains with entrenched Japs, he knew the BAR was going to be a PITA.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Doubtful. We own the night with the NVG's. Don't worry about today's soldiers, we are pretty freaking deadly. Ask what is left of the republican guards or the residents of falluja.

ever use them in the jungle?

 

[weekendracer]

Second, DI has issues. Everyone knows it, but it is ignored for many reasons. The dirtier the environment and the more use the weapon sees in a short time without proper maintenance, the more likely weapon malfunctions are to occur. Examples of malfunctions during combat are easily found from front line units. The US military has many options to address this, from new weapon systems like the SCAR (expensive and heavy) to piston-based AR's like HP416's (still expensive). Given the lessons learned with DI based weapons over the last 40+ years, we will change front-line infantry units primary weapon eventually. Maybe it happens with a caliber change, maybe not, but I think it happens sooner rather than later.

I wonder how much of this issue is the weapons are essentially 'pool' weapons. Unless I'm mistaken, you get issued a weapon once in theater (or soon to deploy). There is no accountability in the general maintenance of the weapon before or after that time. I'm sure some guy has that responsibility for the warehoused weapons, but individual weapons is what I'm talking about. If you KNEW you were taking THIS gun into combat, I'd think the weapons would function better.

If the military assigns weapons, then this may be a moot point. But I've seen my agency guns and after a year or so, I wouldn't trust most of them either. At one point almost half of our M4's were deadlined due to cracks and other issues that no one cared about because it was a pooled weapon. Those of us who checked them out normally asked for guns by number. I spent hours cleaning the gun the first time and I chewed butt if I found out someone else took it out.

 

[rali]

Considering where on my molle gear my ammo pouches were (1:00 and 11:00 o'clock) and how close that is to the family jewels, we might want to stay away from depleted uranium 5.56.

Piffle. DU is about as radioactive as granite from Mt. Monadnock. It's predominantly alpha particles, which are stopped by clothing (also skin). It gets a bit sketchier when small quantities of u-238 break down into th-234 and emit betas. Carrying DU rounds is fine. Inhaling the dust after they fragment is ... not fine. But it's about a million times more toxic chemically than radioactively.

R

 

[Mountain]

Piffle. DU is about as radioactive as granite from Mt. Monadnock. It's predominantly alpha particles, which are stopped by clothing (also skin). It gets a bit sketchier when small quantities of u-238 break down into th-234 and emit betas. Carrying DU rounds is fine. Inhaling the dust after they fragment is ... not fine. But it's about a million times more toxic chemically than radioactively.

R

Yep! One sheet of paper will stop alpha particles. Don't breath or eat the dust, and if it gets on you take a shower.

 

[Picton]

I wonder how much of this issue is the weapons are essentially 'pool' weapons. Unless I'm mistaken, you get issued a weapon once in theater (or soon to deploy). There is no accountability in the general maintenance of the weapon before or after that time. I'm sure some guy has that responsibility for the warehoused weapons, but individual weapons is what I'm talking about. If you KNEW you were taking THIS gun into combat, I'd think the weapons would function better.

If the military assigns weapons, then this may be a moot point. But I've seen my agency guns and after a year or so, I wouldn't trust most of them either. At one point almost half of our M4's were deadlined due to cracks and other issues that no one cared about because it was a pooled weapon. Those of us who checked them out normally asked for guns by number. I spent hours cleaning the gun the first time and I chewed butt if I found out someone else took it out.

No. Granted, I was an infantryman; REMFs might work differently, but I highly doubt it. Army weapons are accounted for at company level, and when you sign into the company you're assigned a weapon. You keep drawing that same weapon as long as you're in that company.

For most soldiers, that'll be an entire enlistment; say, three years. So for three years they'll be shooting, cleaning, and maintaining that one weapon. And Joe knows that, when the balloon goes up, THIS is going to be his go-to-war weapon.

For the kind of training that requires weapons but no shooting, like road marches and rifle PT, we were often issued plastic replicas we called "rubber duckies." That prevents useless wear on the real thing.

 

[Crotchrocket]

Ridiculous? No way. You need energy to defeat armor. 5.56 is lacking compared to 7.62.

Nice to see the mil looking at other options besides 'pussy guns' (old armorer quote, not mine). Perhaps 5.56 has run its course.

I think you're talking about the mythical "knock down power" a quantity that cannot be measured by any modern instrument known to man, but is somehow related to how large and how manly the projectile is. Speed is what knocks through armor not kinetic energy.

https://youtu.be/oMYkEMhPsO8

It'd be better to see them moving to a more modern caliber like 6.5 that can pack both more mass, better BC and faster speeds in the right configuration. 6.5 isn't a nato caliber though.

 

[goodlife30]

ever use them in the jungle?

Yes they do. Philippines. Just because you hide in the jungle does not mean you are invisible. There is also thermal as well as IR and never mention the drones. In terms of environments, urban is the deadliest. We have shown we can own these places. In fact many people in Fallujah were complaining were we executing insurgents-no it was just headshot with optics on 556 rifles. Pop up, new breathing hole. Hide in a building, armored bulldozer buries you, fortified position - M1 abrams or JDAM. Symphony of death.

 

[E.Stoner]

This was a pretty thorough and insightful discussion of the caliber debate:
[video]https://youtu.be/ZAy9QApbuJQ[/video]

 

[Mountain]

I think you're talking about the mythical "knock down power" a quantity that cannot be measured by any modern instrument known to man, but is somehow related to how large and how manly the projectile is. Speed is what knocks through armor not kinetic energy.

https://youtu.be/oMYkEMhPsO8

It'd be better to see them moving to a more modern caliber like 6.5 that can pack both more mass, better BC and faster speeds in the right configuration. 6.5 isn't a nato caliber though.

LOL, I always get a kick out of the mythical knock-down power arguments. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the physics necessary to punch through ceramic or steel plate. AP or especially API in 7.62 will be more effective, or conversely will require the bad guys to gear up with thicker, heavier plates. I realize this is only one specific performance parameter and don't have the experience to argue what is ultimately best for the field. I do know something about the plates via work.

Any 'knock-down power' doubters please join me at the NES Pumpkin Shoot this early November. Watch what .223 does to pumpkins, then watch what .458 SOCOM does. Same for a block of wood or other large objects.

 

[goodlife30]

LOL, I always get a kick out of the mythical knock-down power arguments. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the physics necessary to punch through ceramic or steel plate. AP or especially API in 7.62 will be more effective, or conversely will require the bad guys to gear up with thicker, heavier plates. I realize this is only one specific performance parameter and don't have the experience to argue what is ultimately best for the field. I do know something about the plates via work.

Any 'knock-down power' doubters please join me at the NES Pumpkin Shoot this early November. Watch what .223 does to pumpkins, then watch what .458 SOCOM does. Same for a block of wood or other large objects.

You are confusing knock down power with logistics. At the end of the day there are literally billions of 556 rounds out there for the dozens of nato allies. Factor in the cost of switching over all of those weapon systems and rounds for a marginal increase in effectiveness. If you want knock down power issue everyone with a 50 cal. But at the end of the day the soldiers have to carry this weapon along with 90 pounds of gear. Lighter rounds mean you can carry more of them. It's not single shot kills in most cases, it's suppress maneuver and flank. 556 is more than adequate for that.
If a heavier round is needed there are medium 7.62 machine guns, m14s, 203's, grenades, at4's-so the practicality of it is that is a change is 556 needed and if so is the cost worth it based on the weapon systems already present in the armory.

 

[Cabinetman]

I, too, feel that since the 762x51 has been adopted by NATO and is a proven round that it will be the caliber of choice. How many stories have been repeated here and elsewhere about squads being outfitted with an old M14 to a SDM? No one says that the .223 isn't powerful or accurate but sometimes it's too much of a good thing.

I bow to anyone here with military experience and their opinions as I have ZERO military experience. However I do have a LOT of experience handling/owning MBRs from around the world and one of every semi-auto made. After dealing with about 25 calibers between rifle and pistols, the 725x51 became my go-to and every rifle I've fired in that caliber impressed me. At 100 yards, we set up a solid wood duck decoy. I shot it 10 times with my 55 grain AR, hitting it all ten times while it sat on a stool. It didn't move and, frankly, I thought I had missed it entirely but when we examined it, there were ten perfectly drilled holes though that Maple duck decoy. Then we setup for 762x51. It was shot once and that was it as it just blew up. Both rounds were FMJ and military. I've had the same experience when shooting competition with bowling pins. The other competitors were shooting their really excellent ARs. I brought a French MAS 49/56 in 762x51 NATO with a 10 round clothespin mag and I had no problem dropping pins while the AR fellas were constantly shooting through the pins.

Just to put a wrinkle in this discussion, if I were to select a second-best caliber, I'd probably go to the AG42b caliber of 6.5mm Swede. That ammo hunts really well and is, well, beautiful in it's own right. For a while it was out there in surplus but has dried up but it would be a good compromise, IMHO. Trouble is, however, the rest of the world is NATO and as it's been said, it would be impossible to replace the literally billions of rounds already out there with something new. My favorite rifle today? Also my DPMS LR308B 18" barrel with Leatherwood "Camputer" scope that will keep it accurate to 800+ yards. I've only used it to 300 yards, however, but it was incredibly accurate at that range. I don't doubt it would do more as proven by so many other shooters of this machine.

 

[Mountain]

You are confusing knock down power with logistics. At the end of the day there are literally billions of 556 rounds out there for the dozens of nato allies. Factor in the cost of switching over all of those weapon systems and rounds for a marginal increase in effectiveness. If you want knock down power issue everyone with a 50 cal. But at the end of the day the soldiers have to carry this weapon along with 90 pounds of gear. Lighter rounds mean you can carry more of them. It's not single shot kills in most cases, it's suppress maneuver and flank. 556 is more than adequate for that.
If a heavier round is needed there are medium 7.62 machine guns, m14s, 203's, grenades, at4's-so the practicality of it is that is a change is 556 needed and if so is the cost worth it based on the weapon systems already present in the armory.

No, I'm not confusing anything. Knock down power was a separate comment. My main point was regarding penetration of body armor plates. I did specifically mention that was only one parameter and that I was not commenting on overall suitability.

I should probably further clarify my mention of API. Not saying it would be better for body armor. Just wanted to point out that if API were necessary, 7.62 is big enough to deliver a decent API projectile.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

I, too, feel that since the 762x51 has been adopted by NATO and is a proven round that it will be the caliber of choice. How many stories have been repeated here and elsewhere about squads being outfitted with an old M14 to a SDM? No one says that the .223 isn't powerful or accurate but sometimes it's too much of a good thing.

I bow to anyone here with military experience and their opinions as I have ZERO military experience. However I do have a LOT of experience handling/owning MBRs from around the world and one of every semi-auto made. After dealing with about 25 calibers between rifle and pistols, the 725x51 became my go-to and every rifle I've fired in that caliber impressed me. At 100 yards, we set up a solid wood duck decoy. I shot it 10 times with my 55 grain AR, hitting it all ten times while it sat on a stool. It didn't move and, frankly, I thought I had missed it entirely but when we examined it, there were ten perfectly drilled holes though that Maple duck decoy. Then we setup for 762x51. It was shot once and that was it as it just blew up. Both rounds were FMJ and military. I've had the same experience when shooting competition with bowling pins. The other competitors were shooting their really excellent ARs. I brought a French MAS 49/56 in 762x51 NATO with a 10 round clothespin mag and I had no problem dropping pins while the AR fellas were constantly shooting through the pins.

Just to put a wrinkle in this discussion, if I were to select a second-best caliber, I'd probably go to the AG42b caliber of 6.5mm Swede. That ammo hunts really well and is, well, beautiful in it's own right. For a while it was out there in surplus but has dried up but it would be a good compromise, IMHO. Trouble is, however, the rest of the world is NATO and as it's been said, it would be impossible to replace the literally billions of rounds already out there with something new. My favorite rifle today? Also my DPMS LR308B 18" barrel with Leatherwood "Camputer" scope that will keep it accurate to 800+ yards. I've only used it to 300 yards, however, but it was incredibly accurate at that range. I don't doubt it would do more as proven by so many other shooters of this machine.

all this would be entirely relevant, if we were fighting maple duck decoys or bowling pins and the furthest we had to hump our rifles was from the trunk of the car to the bench rest. unfortunately such is not the case.

 

[Cabinetman]

Humping a heavy rifle and the attending ammo and mags is most certainly a problem. I know that my rifle is heavy. I have to laugh because I sold all my military MBRs including the M14s I had (totally overhauled and match ready) because they were heavy. The AR in .223 are super light but that .308 is another beast entirely and weights more than my M14s ever did. So, I traded wood for metal. I know there are many ways I can lighten it but as you said, it's not something I have to carry daily in the heat. That shows my inexperience.

The Russians got rid of the 762x54 for many of the same reasons we eliminated the 30.06 in our arsenals. Too darned heavy and they don't do well in MGs as they beat up the works. That's also why they developed the 762x41, 49, and finally the 762x39, now found 'round the world. It doesn't have the distance of the .308, however. Maybe they should just go and invent the laser rifles after all and get it over with. The only thing you'll have to carry will be batteries! LOL

Rome

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Humping a heavy rifle and the attending ammo and mags is most certainly a problem. I know that my rifle is heavy. I have to laugh because I sold all my military MBRs including the M14s I had (totally overhauled and match ready) because they were heavy. The AR in .223 are super light but that .308 is another beast entirely and weights more than my M14s ever did. So, I traded wood for metal. I know there are many ways I can lighten it but as you said, it's not something I have to carry daily in the heat. That shows my inexperience.

The Russians got rid of the 762x54 for many of the same reasons we eliminated the 30.06 in our arsenals. Too darned heavy and they don't do well in MGs as they beat up the works. That's also why they developed the 762x41, 49, and finally the 762x39, now found 'round the world. It doesn't have the distance of the .308, however. Maybe they should just go and invent the laser rifles after all and get it over with. The only thing you'll have to carry will be batteries! LOL

Rome

Also, dont forget the russians have abandoned the 7.62x39 in favor of a 5.45x45 since afghanistan as well.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/21/the-7-62mm-intermediate-combat-service-rifle-program-is-dead/

 

[Fixxah]

Wasn't there chatter about the 6.8SPC at one time?

 

[MichaelJames1971]

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/09/21/the-7-62mm-intermediate-combat-service-rifle-program-is-dead/

What's really interesting are the comments - someone makes-mention that armor-plate that STOPS 5.56 is available on Alibaba for $100 a plate, not $250 quoted by the General.

It took me 5 minutes on Alibaba's website to find a bulk-purchase price even-cheaper than that.....I wonder if China has any 'export restrictions' to who they sell this stuff to - I'm guessing they don't.

https://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=armor+plate

 

[AllaSnackbah]

thank god this gayness has died.