Beretta 92fs vs. S&W M&P 9mm

[strangenh]

Yeah man I've been leaning towards the 92 pretty much from the start. Regardless I definitely plan on making both a part of the collection, it was all about which one to add first. Any thoughts on Italian made vs. US made? I've heard that the Italian models have a better fit and finish...bs?

Yeah I have heard that a lot. But is an Italian-made one always better? I don't know about that. The Italian ones do have excellent fit & finish, even the old 92f models. But I have used and taken down a recent-make 92fs vertec (Italy), and a first-year-of-US-production 92fs (USA) and found them both to be really smooth and well put together. The USA-made one could be run with the slide completely dry and you wouldn't know, it was so well finished (the Italian one's owner wouldn't let me try that on his ).

Has the US factory gone downhill? Maybe, but I sort of doubt that. I guess there were probably the usual start-up quirks in production. Get yourself a recent-model 92fs with factory night-sights, or a Brigadier or an Elite (removable sights) with the full size grip (for your big mitts) and I think you'll be really happy.

Definitely stick with Beretta-branded or Mec-gar mags, though, as I see more issues from cheap mags than anything else.

 

[Major Blood]

Thanks again for the great advice and input everyone!

I'm going with the Beretta, with the M&P to follow sometime after my lil one arrives in January...if I can get the co-sign from the Warden that is...

 

[Fsorrent]

Thanks for the offer, much appreciated.

I'm going to have to pass as Mrs. Blood and I are expecting a mini-me come January so unfortunately my weekend has been relegated to escort duty for the Mrs's recon mission at the baby section up at Ikea...

WHOA...Congrats! So how long till MINI-BLOOD starts clogging up the forums!!!

BEST OF LUCK

 

[mark056]

Size is a consideration with me. When I was in the Army, I was issued the M9 and even though I always qualified Expert on it, it remains one of my least favorite handguns primarily because of the trigger reach and the width of the grip. This pistol will always be mired in some degree of controversy and one hears different stories about reliability, especially in combat conditions. The traditional DA/SA mode of operation is considered a bit dated by some, although I personally have never had any real issues with that system. The 92 has been on the market now for a long time, and the bugs have been worked out of it, so to speak. The latest models have some improvements over the older models.

I'm not a big fan of the M&P but a lot of people love them, and many PD's are switching over to them. You could do a lot worse than selecting an M&P. They appear to have a lot going for them, of couse as a Mass resident you will want to get a trigger job after you purchase the pistol, something that you may wish to consider as a factor in your selection.

Mark L.

 

[bvet4dog]

^ he's correct about the MA mp's. Most mp's needs trigger job anyways. not to mention it's a complete different beast on the range once it's tuned. I remember being at fort bragg doing some target shooting. my cousin best friend had a mp.40 and some reason i was a fool for renting same gun at the shop. I ment to get something else but i ended up with same gun. Funny thing is that rental mp was so horrible. the trigger was still bearable but could use a tune up. When i used the other mp (not rental) It shot beautiful and i fell in love with it. (part of the reason why i bought my .45 recently).

think of it like this. You buy a honda or something.... and you go get it modded and tune up. now It's completely different right? new tires, new rims, maybe turbo added.... and it's fast and shifts great right? same for some of the mp's, just a tune up done to it makes all the difference. (sorry for the poor comparison but you get the idea)

- bvet4dog

 

[Major Blood]

WHOA...Congrats! So how long till MINI-BLOOD starts clogging up the forums!!!

BEST OF LUCK

Thanks alot man, I'm chompin' at the bit to have the lil' bugger here already!

After the initial firearms/survival training and hand-to-hand combat drills, I think he should be ready to flood the forums by 2014 or so...unless those damn Mayans were right...

 

[Major Blood]

Size is a consideration with me. When I was in the Army, I was issued the M9 and even though I always qualified Expert on it, it remains one of my least favorite handguns primarily because of the trigger reach and the width of the grip. This pistol will always be mired in some degree of controversy and one hears different stories about reliability, especially in combat conditions. The traditional DA/SA mode of operation is considered a bit dated by some, although I personally have never had any real issues with that system. The 92 has been on the market now for a long time, and the bugs have been worked out of it, so to speak. The latest models have some improvements over the older models.

I'm not a big fan of the M&P but a lot of people love them, and many PD's are switching over to them. You could do a lot worse than selecting an M&P. They appear to have a lot going for them, of couse as a Mass resident you will want to get a trigger job after you purchase the pistol, something that you may wish to consider as a factor in your selection.

Mark L.

Yes, I've heard the size is an issue for some....thick grips and long reach and such. I have what some of my friends have dubbed "Wolfman Hands" so it shouldn't be a problem....

And the fact that it's an older model that has had sufficient time to be perfected was a big plus for me...I like the tried and true vs. the new and untested most of the time.

^ he's correct about the MA mp's. Most mp's needs trigger job anyways. not to mention it's a complete different beast on the range once it's tuned. I remember being at fort bragg doing some target shooting. my cousin best friend had a mp.40 and some reason i was a fool for renting same gun at the shop. I ment to get something else but i ended up with same gun. Funny thing is that rental mp was so horrible. the trigger was still bearable but could use a tune up. When i used the other mp (not rental) It shot beautiful and i fell in love with it. (part of the reason why i bought my .45 recently).

think of it like this. You buy a honda or something.... and you go get it modded and tune up. now It's completely different right? new tires, new rims, maybe turbo added.... and it's fast and shifts great right? same for some of the mp's, just a tune up done to it makes all the difference. (sorry for the poor comparison but you get the idea)

- bvet4dog

Oh yeah, when I do get the M&P I'll definitely be getting the trigger job, maybe polish the feed ramp although I haven't hear of any FTF issues. I'm just the "overbuilt is goood" type of guy.

And the Honda analogy was on point...

 

[Admin]

I'm late to this MB as I just noticed it. I shot the hell out of the 92fs in the Marines, they were reliable and very accurate. The only issue we had on the team was with the locking block on the barrel.

http://www.sarca.it/spareparts/96.htm #2 on the chart.

It would split and you would have a live round stuck out of battery with the armorer being the only one who really knew how to get it out. I saw this happen with about 3 or 4 guns over the course of two years. Granted this was back in 1995 and 1996 so Beretta has probably addressed this issue. Also keep in mind we would put 200+ rounds a day, six days a week, for four to five months straight. They were shot to death and the barrels would get replaced when our groups started loosening up.

That is my only complaint, but like I said I haven't heard of that happening recently so I can only imagine they have fixed the issue.

 

[Major Blood]

I'm late to this MB as I just noticed it. I shot the hell out of the 92fs in the Marines, they were reliable and very accurate. The only issue we had on the team was with the locking block on the barrel.

http://www.sarca.it/spareparts/96.htm #2 on the chart.

It would split and you would have a live round stuck out of battery with the armorer being the only one who really knew how to get it out. I saw this happen with about 3 or 4 guns over the course of two years. Granted this was back in 1995 and 1996 so Beretta has probably addressed this issue. Also keep in mind we would put 200+ rounds a day, six days a week, for four to five months straight. They were shot to death and the barrels would get replaced when our groups started loosening up.

That is my only complaint, but like I said I haven't heard of that happening recently so I can only imagine they have fixed the issue.

No prob D, thanks for adding on.

Wow, you guys were really putting them to the test...good to know they held up with minimal problems.

 

[mark056]

I'm late to this MB as I just noticed it. I shot the hell out of the 92fs in the Marines, they were reliable and very accurate. The only issue we had on the team was with the locking block on the barrel.

http://www.sarca.it/spareparts/96.htm #2 on the chart.

It would split and you would have a live round stuck out of battery with the armorer being the only one who really knew how to get it out. I saw this happen with about 3 or 4 guns over the course of two years. Granted this was back in 1995 and 1996 so Beretta has probably addressed this issue. Also keep in mind we would put 200+ rounds a day, six days a week, for four to five months straight. They were shot to death and the barrels would get replaced when our groups started loosening up.

That is my only complaint, but like I said I haven't heard of that happening recently so I can only imagine they have fixed the issue.

Derek,

This is interesting information because suppposedly the splitting and cracked locking block issue was fixed in the early 1990's and you still had it happening in the middle '90's. Supposedly the GAO looked into this. It sounds like another possible government whitewashing job to me.

Mark L.

 

[Admin]

1995 and 1996 to be exact.

 

[bvet4dog]

THERE are crooks in the government. whats new

 

[strangenh]

It would split and you would have a live round stuck out of battery with the armorer being the only one who really knew how to get it out. I saw this happen with about 3 or 4 guns over the course of two years. Granted this was back in 1995 and 1996 so Beretta has probably addressed this issue. Also keep in mind we would put 200+ rounds a day, six days a week, for four to five months straight. They were shot to death and the barrels would get replaced when our groups started loosening up.

Yeah, that is the classic failure with the early 92 series. The locking block would fail after 12K-15K rounds or so (the pin shears and the block itself gets pretty beat up), when using hotter +P rounds (and NATO spec is +P). The 92fs design added a minor change to the frame that stops the slide from over-travel in the event of a breakage (so you can easily field strip it and get it running again, without an armorer), and they have toughened and added a curve to the locking block so it now sucks up a lot more abuse.

The block design in on its 3rd generation and appears to have shaken out the issues. A locking block "kit" (block, pin, and new recoil spring, since it'll probably want replacing too) is $75, and the really nice thing is you can get new drop-in barrel/block assemblies ready to rock for $125 or less because of all the people pulling the barrel/block assemblies and setting up with threaded, comped, etc. aftermarket barrels.

 

[strangenh]

Derek, This is interesting information because suppposedly the splitting and cracked locking block issue was fixed in the early 1990's and you still had it happening in the middle '90's. Supposedly the GAO looked into this. It sounds like another possible government whitewashing job to me. Mark L.

Mark, as far as I can tell they did fix the early problem, but it wasn't ultimately good enough for advancing (ab)use that was being asked of the pistol. The v1 block (on the fs frame) was supposed to handle an average of 22K rounds NATO - before it or the block pin breaks - but hotter-end ammo, infrequent spring replacement, and the way it failed (locking up hard) sent Beretta back to the drawing board for version 2, and now version 3 of the block. (Ok, YES, I am a Beretta 92 geek.)

Derek, sounds like you guys were going through 25K+ rounds in 5 months, so it makes sense something could give, especially if the recoil springs were not replaced a couple times in that cycle. And (sadly?) the block breaking in 25K average rounds is within the testing spec for the M9 contract.

It is a part that ultimately is supposed to fail, some day, but the v2 improved block could still lock up hard on failure (failing after an appropriate number of rounds). The "locking block kit" now includes a fresh recoil spring, too, since an old spring really reduces the block pin's life. The v3 block assembly is supposed to last a lot longer than the v1 or v2 ones. The replacement locking block kit is less than I thought, too - $60.

I only hear now about the pins shearing after a ton of rounds, and I personally know no one with a 92f or fs that has had the block or pin fail. I have been told by staff at MFL that they do have the pins break eventually in theirs, since they rent the 92fs, and it gets rented and shot a lot. They don't keep a round count, though they do seem to think their Glocks hold up better - and, well, I guess that shouldn't come as a huge surprise.