best engineering ideas on guns

Coyote33

Coyote33

NES Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
34,777
Likes
14,143
Feedback: 3 / 0 / 0
OK, I got to thinking...

A lot of people like the 1911.
Kahr is popular and has quite a few good ideas and patents (cam on side instead of above, ...)
Glocks are popular and much copied.
A lot of people like the H&K P7 series. Why? Why hasn't this been copied?
A lot of people claim to have the smallest/slimmest/lightest/whateverest pistol.
Some good revolver ideas out there (latching mechanisms, cranes, ...)
Trigger block safeties.
Grip safeties.


OK, now the question part.

What ideas would you pull out of these or any other areas of gun making to make the best pistol, and why? The best rifle?

Just curious here.

I'm surprised some of the patents out there aren't taken advantage of an licensed out so others can use them. Maybe they are. Maybe they're just too expensive for protective purposes.

Thanks.
 
Last edited:
My favorite handgun features can be found on the SIG P-210 (8). SAO, side mount release, super accurate, reliable, comfortable - it doesn't get any better, IMO. The SIG X-Five T is a close 2nd.

As for rifle... chrome lined bore/chamber, 16" BBL, 1/7 twist, flat top upper, piston, AR mags, side folding/retractable stock, corrosion resistant finish - the SIG 556 comes close.
 
The P7 has some interesting ideas in it, but I'm not sure they would stand up to general application to pistols. I've had one for something in the neighborhood of 15 years or so, and it's still one of my favorites.

The gas retarded action is the only one I'm surprised hasn't been picked up by someone else. It allows the barrel to be fixed to the frame, which probably has a lot to do with the P7's excellent accuracy; it also allows for a slightly lower profile slide, since you don't have to worry about clearance for barrel movement inside the slide as it unlocks.

The frame does heat up rather quickly with the gas running through it, and it creates a "must clean" area inside the gas piston, every 500 rounds by the manual.

The squeeze cocking system is another unique feature, but the least likely to gain wide acceptance. I love it, but it has drawbacks that would be difficult to fix. It does simplify the operation of the pistol: squeeze the front strap, and it's ready to go. Let go, and it uncocks. Slide locks back on an empty mag, change mags, squeeze front strap, slide releases and it remains cocked and ready - until you let go of it. As a bonus, you get the same single action trigger pull every time - no adjustment from DA to SA.

However, all the magic mechanisms that perform these jobs have to live in front of the magazine. So, if your hand shape/size doesn't like a slim but long grip, you're never going to like the P7, and the only thing new grips would do is make it a fatter long grip. It fits my overly long hands great, but not everyone will feel the same. Also, those magic mechanisms are a mechanical nightmare hiding inside the grip. There are a lot of moving parts in this pistol, and that pushes the manufacturing cost up.

I'm thinking that if the market thought these were worthwhile features, they would have convinced HK to rent them out. The P7, as much as I love shooting it, would seem to be an evolutionary dead end.
 
Coyote33 said:
I'm surprised some of the patents out there aren't taken advantage of an licensed out so others can use them. Maybe they are. Maybe they're just too expensive for protective purposes.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

IP is a funny thing. It has many uses.

1) Patents are essentially a license to maintain a monopoly for a period of time in return for teaching the public about the invention.
2) Patents are commonly used to block other companies from using the concept. If some clever guy/gal patented the idea of using a trigger under the action and in front of the grip of a pistol, no one else would be able to build a gun with a such a trigger. These are refereed to commonly as blocking patents.
3) Now suppose some other clever guy has developed a new barrel that has rifling and causes the projectile to spin, thereby stabilizing the projectile for better long range performance. This is a great blocking patent, but the poor bugger has to mount the trigger on top of the action and the slide breaks his fingers every time he pulls the trigger.
4) The person in #2 is selling lots of guns because his guns won't break your fingers with the slide slamming backward.
5) The person in #3 gets access to the military market because the govt. doesn't care if soldiers fingers get broken since they can effectively engage the enemy from a distance, thereby saving lives.
6) The person in #2 decides he wants a piece of the action. He goes to the person in #3 and strikes a deal to exchange the right to use a proper trigger for the right to use a rifled barrel.

This is common a very common usage of IP and you won't see it on the patent at www.uspto.gov because the patent still belongs to the original assignee.

And yes, sometimes it is just not worth it to defend a patent. But knowingly not defending it for an extended period can cause you to loose the right to enforce the patent (a sort of squatters rights).

Matt
 
Last edited:
Hey, now that is thinking outside the box. Take the entire idea of trigger location and change it. How about a thumb fired, striker based pistol? It could have a "trigger button" like the fighter plane video games, and the brass could eject down from the bottom of the slide mounted underneath.

Time for some new innovations in the industry.
 
I thought I saw something about a thumb operated trigger once.

Also, just looked at an article on the Luger P08. What a great gun. I wonder if any of these ideas are patented, or are they in the public domain now? I'm surprised nobody hasn't just started making them again. This is a classic design like the 1911 and the HighPower, and would have a huge market.
 
Coyote33 said:
I thought I saw something about a thumb operated trigger once.

Also, just looked at an article on the Luger P08. What a great gun. I wonder if any of these ideas are patented, or are they in the public domain now? I'm surprised nobody hasn't just started making them again. This is a classic design like the 1911 and the HighPower, and would have a huge market.
Click to expand...

Any IP in the P08 has long since entered the public domain.
 
Heck, the Luger must be "public domain" now as well. How come nobody has come out with an updated version of some of these classics? Imagine a modern stainless Luger for less than $1000?
 
nanerclip said:
My favorite handgun features can be found on the SIG P-210 (8). SAO, side mount release, super accurate, reliable, comfortable - it doesn't get any better, IMO. The SIG X-Five T is a close 2nd.

As for rifle... chrome lined bore/chamber, 16" BBL, 1/7 twist, flat top upper, piston, AR mags, side folding/retractable stock, corrosion resistant finish - the SIG 556 comes close.
Click to expand...

In an auto pistol I agree with the above SIG P-210. SAO And I love the 1911. But the SIG is better in my experience.
 
Which gun designs are publicly available? I know the 1911. How about some of the older revolvers? AR-15 of course. What else that might be of use, but isn't used? Makarov? Colt Mustang (similar to 1911)? Tokarev? Luger?

How come nobody borrows some of the best ideas from these guns, and adding some innovation, comes up with a new idea?

I thought the Beretta Cougar's rotary mechanism was a good idea with less recoil and better accuracy as its claims to fame.


Edit to add:
All the foreign made SAA clones, and the Umberti stuff, and some of the Brazilian copies. Where does that South American 1911 spinoff fall into this? Is it or isn't it a 1911?

For that matter, how about any of the current 1911's? Are they truly completely interchangeable?
 
Last edited:
Coyote33 said:
Which gun designs are publicly available? I know the 1911. How about some of the older revolvers? AR-15 of course. What else that might be of use, but isn't used? Makarov? Colt Mustang (similar to 1911)? Tokarev? Luger?

How come nobody borrows some of the best ideas from these guns, and adding some innovation, comes up with a new idea?

I thought the Beretta Cougar's rotary mechanism was a good idea with less recoil and better accuracy as its claims to fame.
Click to expand...

The CZ75 is has been copied by a number of manufacturers including Armalite (via some manufacturer in Turkey) and Tanfaglio (or whatever the spelling is). Also, Glocks have essentially been copied by a number of other companies in blatant and not so blatant instances.

In some sense, I'm glad there isn't more copying going on. Assuming enough competition in the industry, lack of copying leads to more varied designs.
 
Yeah, but wouldn't a new, alloy Luger be kind of cool? Imagine if that became as available as the 1911 design?
 
I would like to invent a trigger group for the AR that actually had 3 (or more) triggers in a line with about 1/8 apart. After pulling each trigger it disengages and becomes part of the second trigger. Therefore only firing one round per trigger press and not becoming a machine gun while allowing extremely fast rapid rife.
 
Big Joe said:
Be that as it may, it is still a beautiful firearm and at the time of its invention and for years afterward it was a viable sidearm.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I've read that it points beautifully.

But I wouldn't base the design of a modern, combat pistol off the Luger.
 
Here are a few of my faves..
HK P7.. all around awesome..
HK P9, cocker/ decocker lever and roller lock action (like on the Mp5/G3).
CZ52. The way the slide pops right off.
HK4 many calibers, one action.
 
Coyote33 said:
Hey, now that is thinking outside the box. Take the entire idea of trigger location and change it. How about a thumb fired, striker based pistol? It could have a "trigger button" like the fighter plane video games
Time for some new innovations in the industry.
Click to expand...

I remember reading a concept like this in a letter to the editors at Guns&Ammo magazine 5 or so years ago.
He described it as useing his index finger & being triggered like that on a can of hornet spay.

Big Joe said:
I'm going to have to say the integral bottle opener on my IMI Galil [rofl]
Click to expand...

Nice.

seanc said:
roller lock action
Click to expand...

Definitely.


Lets not forget good ol Richard Gatlings contribution for without it we would'nt have the mighty M 134 & other variants.

m134dt_titanium.jpg
 
hicksonj said:
Just to see it done: .500 S&W Magnum chambered 1911
Click to expand...

Now that would be a real challenge. You would have to have hands like Shaquille O'Neil to get around the grip

Guncrafter Ind. Chambered one in .50GI That's about as close as anyone has come.
The only platform even conceivable for such a thing could be Automag (out of buisness) or perhaps Magnum Researches Desert eagle witch has been streched to it's limits with the .50 action express chambering.

SKS Ray said:
The best engineering design was invented many years ago.[wink]
Click to expand...

That's for sure Ray.

How about Mauser's bolt action. The most rock solid & copied bolt design in history & still widely used to this day.

ETA: Jose beat me too it.

Others:

Rudolf Schmidt's strait pull bolt design.
Henry's lever action.
Water jackets with vapor recovery systems.
Open bolt MG's to prevent "cook off".
Implementation of stamped steel parts for production purposes.
Steyr cold hammer forged barrels.
Countless contributions from John Moses Browning. [bow]

Geesh, I figured you guys would be all over this.

As far as useing these ideas to create a new platform? IMO It's pretty much all been done & good thing too because now we can all enjoy them.
 
Last edited:
No one has come up with a better revolver operating system than Smith & Wesson's Hand Ejector Model of 1899
 

Similar threads

Looking for suppressor storage ideas
Replies
7
Views
164
Tartakovsky
Tartakovsky
Looking for custom engraving on O/U shotgun
Replies
5
Views
115
tinhorn
tinhorn
Help on which Rifle to choose
Replies
18
Views
394
P. Lopes
P. Lopes
Bolt gun - paralysis by analysis
Replies
3
Views
145
MickeyD’s
M
Help with rust prevention on my friend's Browning Citori CXS
Replies
15
Views
445
StephDoza
S
Back
Top Bottom