Under stood. Figure there's lead angles free bore length differences BUT there isn't a kinda wylde head space guage or is there.
Anyway I'm siding with Jason's.....if it closes on a field guage "something " is wrong.
Will watch for OPs results
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Bolt closing on field gauge
- Thread starter Boarder700
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Anyway I'm siding with Jason's.....if it closes on a field guage "something " is wrong.
Will watch for OPs results
1903Collector
NES Member
I don't think anyone was disagreeing on the field gauge part of it.
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I guess Wylde headspace tolerance is whatever Bill Wylde says it should be. With that said, the only changes he made were on the other side of the datum line so I don't see why it should be any different.
1903Collector
NES Member
I was poking around brownells for some other items and just happened to read the "colt brownells" guage description
" Made to the Colt factory's special dimensions for M16/AR-15 rifles. It measures the maximum factory acceptable headspace; an essential check on guns that have seen extensive service or have been rebarreled."
so am i to assume they dont use these on the "new" rifles ? Also found this which might be helpful to identify a possible miss labelled or "wrong" guage.
this was taken from the "spec" section from the OPs link
SPECS: Hardened and ground steel. 1.65" (4.2cm) overall (this is NOT the "headspace" dimension). .3655" (9.3mm) diameter.
so one would believe if the OAL is shorter the guage could be miss labeled?
ok so i had to call a old timer about a question on a old rifle... I asked him what he knew about m16/ar15s. I aint old enough not to remember working on them..... anyhow he says find one of these..... http://www.billricca.com/trans2/m16_headspace_gage.jpg
" Made to the Colt factory's special dimensions for M16/AR-15 rifles. It measures the maximum factory acceptable headspace; an essential check on guns that have seen extensive service or have been rebarreled."
so am i to assume they dont use these on the "new" rifles ? Also found this which might be helpful to identify a possible miss labelled or "wrong" guage.
this was taken from the "spec" section from the OPs link
SPECS: Hardened and ground steel. 1.65" (4.2cm) overall (this is NOT the "headspace" dimension). .3655" (9.3mm) diameter.
so one would believe if the OAL is shorter the guage could be miss labeled?
ok so i had to call a old timer about a question on a old rifle... I asked him what he knew about m16/ar15s. I aint old enough not to remember working on them..... anyhow he says find one of these..... http://www.billricca.com/trans2/m16_headspace_gage.jpg
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Don't be sorry at all. I am new to guns and am the first generation (living) to own guns. I joined this forum to learn as much as I can. In fact, I bought the field gauge because I also read in a lot of places that many military style rifles will close on a no-go gauge when brand new. Building the rifle was incredibly easy (thanks to this forum), but figuring out what I needed to test the headspace was miserable. It seems like everyone ha a different opinion in it.
I am going to call brownells tomorrow and see what they say. I hope to be able to buy or borrow new gauges by next weekend to hopefully figure if my rifle is ok. I will also try to measure the oal of the gauge I have to see what that tells me.
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Honestly I don't know. My guess is many 10's of thousands of rounds. I think the barrel would be a smoothbore and the throat would be completely eroded before the headspace changed much. (On an AR anyway.)
In the Marines the armorers would check them all the time, but I think that was more to catch a rifle that got it's bolt mixed up with another.
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That's pretty much it. It wouldn't hurt to check it about every 5,000 rounds or so. I doubt you'll see much (if any) change, but it only takes 2 minutes so it's not like it's a big production.
I called brownells and talked to one of their gunsmiths. He said that you aren't supposed to push hard hen closing the bolt on the gauge. He said if you can push hard enough you can close a bolt on a field gauge. So do you think that's true? Has anyone pushed really really hard and not been able to close a bolt on a field or nogo gauge? I have strong hands, but I don't think too much stronger than average.
At some point this week I am going to strip the s&w bolt and compare where the bolt is on both guns when I start to feel resistance against the gauge. If it is in about the same spot on both I am going to assume I am good to go. Maybe I will give the new gun to someone else for the first shot.
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At some point this week I am going to strip the s&w bolt and compare where the bolt is on both guns when I start to feel resistance against the gauge. If it is in about the same spot on both I am going to assume I am good to go. Maybe I will give the new gun to someone else for the first shot.
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I'm sure that if you pushed hard enough you could get the bolt to close on a Volkswagen.
You don't want to hammer on the thing or anything like that. Just a firm push, don't baby it but don't go putting it into a 20 ton shop press either.
Also keep in mind the bolt needs to turn and lock to be "closed." Do you have a go gauge so you can see what closed is supposed to look and feel like?
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Depends on the live round - ammo has it's own set of acceptable tolerances. My .02 cents worth of advice - find someone with a proper SET of gauges who knows how to use them. Have that person show you. Pass it on.
EDIT: And get rid of that field II gauge.
The statement from the brownells CS Rep bothers me. The directions clearly say the bolt should not close on a field guage.
I will gladly take that field guage and cram it in my range beater to see if it closes.
Did you measure the overall length of your guage. I find it funny they give this spec on brownells web site. Maybe they use this to id the guage.
I have a fosters field guage for 8mm Mauser and you would need a hammer to get the action to close(and it comes close) but I think the bolt handle would break first?
im in kingston mass.... I would also let you use my go/nogo but they are currently out on loan.
I will be at hanson gun club 830am for cmp and hanging out to about 1130am. I will have my "new" AR with me. I could bring the upper of my oldest rifle also.
1903Collector
NES Member
I don't know why the 1.4736 guage even exists, it seem to cause more confusion than anything else.
Wow that is pretty far, too bad. Thank you kindly for the offer though. I do have a garand due to be delivered any day now. I guess if it comes this week I might not be able to stay away from a cmp event. I do have someone a lot closer that offered to let me use their go-nogo gauges.
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I see the only reason is for military rearsenal.....is it good enough for gubment work still? If you read the little tie bit on th link its claim is its used by colt on used guns to see if they need a new barrel?
A little update with not resolution yet.
ntomsw was kind enough to stop by with his gauges last weekend. We checked my new build and my factory S&W with his go, nogo, and max (same specs as my field). We used the method Jasons showed to ntomsw. Both rifles closed on the go fine. Neither closed on his max. The S&W consistently closed on the nogo and the new build closed on the nogo about half the time we checked.
mac1911 recommended that I contact S&W about that rifle because something clearly seems off. I haven't done so yet, but I will.
I just got a garand from CMP so at least I have something new to shoot this weekend. That means I can probably keep myself from shooting the new build if I need to. My main questions now is, where should I start to find out what is wrong with the new build? How do I know if it is the barrel or the bolt? Do I need to find someone with a known good bolt and swap it out with my Spikes to see if that fixes the problem? Should I just call Spikes and Windham to see what they say? I do hate calling people and waiting on hold and all that so the less companies I have to call the better.
ntomsw was kind enough to stop by with his gauges last weekend. We checked my new build and my factory S&W with his go, nogo, and max (same specs as my field). We used the method Jasons showed to ntomsw. Both rifles closed on the go fine. Neither closed on his max. The S&W consistently closed on the nogo and the new build closed on the nogo about half the time we checked.
mac1911 recommended that I contact S&W about that rifle because something clearly seems off. I haven't done so yet, but I will.
I just got a garand from CMP so at least I have something new to shoot this weekend. That means I can probably keep myself from shooting the new build if I need to. My main questions now is, where should I start to find out what is wrong with the new build? How do I know if it is the barrel or the bolt? Do I need to find someone with a known good bolt and swap it out with my Spikes to see if that fixes the problem? Should I just call Spikes and Windham to see what they say? I do hate calling people and waiting on hold and all that so the less companies I have to call the better.
As for your Smith and Wesson do you know what chamber they cut in it?.
I just wouldn't be to happy with such a sloppy chamber from the factory?
We are just talking head space. Lead and throat demension are another story.
As for your build you could for now swap bolts between the 2 rifles and see if anything changes.
No for your garand. So far 5 garands from the cmp have not closed on a nogo. I'm sure the garand chambers are a bit "loose" in demensions also.
I'm a bit dissapointed that Smith and Wesson or any current manufacture is so loose.?
I just wouldn't be to happy with such a sloppy chamber from the factory?
We are just talking head space. Lead and throat demension are another story.
As for your build you could for now swap bolts between the 2 rifles and see if anything changes.
No for your garand. So far 5 garands from the cmp have not closed on a nogo. I'm sure the garand chambers are a bit "loose" in demensions also.
I'm a bit dissapointed that Smith and Wesson or any current manufacture is so loose.?
1903Collector
NES Member
I would "almost" bet they will tell you the rifle is fine.
1903Collector
NES Member
Not necessarily, now this is just speculation but if the OP is checking with Forster gauges and say S&W uses PTG, Clymer, Manson, or some other manufacturers gauge that could account for the difference he is getting, it doesn't necessarily mean he has a loose or bad chamber. I had a very competent gunsmith tell me basically the same thing when I was having an issue with one of my builds.
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1903Collector
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I guess I would say what's loose to one mfg may be tight to another, I have had barrels from Whindham, Armalite and CMMG close on no go gauges. Now I know these makers don't fall into the top tier BS but they aren't junk barrels either so that makes me very unlucky or there is some merit to what I am saying.
