Carbine conversions and state/federal legality

Jay G

Jay G

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I ran a quick search on the threads in general and searched through the Gun Laws section to see if this had been broached before... (And I'm certain that someone will be along shortly to let me know if I'm duplicating effort...[grin])

I've been thinking about getting a Mech Tech conversion http://www.mechtechsys.com/ for my Auto Ordnance AO1911. It looks like it would be a heckuva lot of fun to plink with and to have as a SHTF carbine. It's moderately priced, I've got lots of 1911 accoutrements, and a spare 1911 for the conversion.

Now... the hard part... I can't for the life of me figure out if this is legal. I am not sure if there are any specific MA laws against it, although I would assume not.

What I'm more concerned about is the BATFE and the legal ramifications of changing a pistol to a rifle (and back again). I am by no means a legal scholar and do not wish to run afoul of Federal laws should I wish to alternate between the carbine and pistol form.

Can anyone shed some light on the legality of this?

Can I make the switch, but leave it as a carbine? If so, do I need an FA-10?

Does swapping it over to a carbine make me a gun manufacturer? The BATFE seems to be ever-expanding what they consider a manufacturer to be...

Should I forget the whole thing?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Yes, it's legal under Federal laws.

A person can convert a pistol to a rifle and back again. What you cannot not do is covert a rifle into a handgun (see exception below)... there's a saying "once a rifle, always a rifle".

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt

"This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity".

Even the SCOTUS agrees...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Company

One of the advantages of buying a stripped AR-15 receiver, is that the builder can either put it together as a rifle or handgun. Unfortuantly, the MA AWB prevents us from building "assault pistols"
 
Last edited:
ramx50 said:
I have a Mech Tech for my Glock 23 and I love it, it is a blast to shoot you should get one!
Click to expand...

I starting looking into the Mech Tech after you mentioned it, actually. [smile]

Since I'm going to have an "extra" 1911, it seemed like a perfect fit. It's one of those things, though - given the out-of-control attitude of the BATFE these days, I wondered what the legality of the pistol-to-rifle conversion would be.

LIN, thanks for the update. What I don't clearly see, though, is what happens to the carbine once it has been assembled. My main concern is that once I put the carbine upper on the AO1911, it will be forever more considered a rifle and I will not be able to convert it back without paying the tax for a short-barreled rifle.

Yes, since it started life as a pistol, I should theoretically be able to convert it back without running afoul of the law. But I sure as hell don't want to be the test case...
 
correct me if I'm wrong but you can convert a T/C encore from pistol to rifle and back and its legal why not a 1911. If unsure go to their web site and ask them
or better yet call them.As a second thought doesn't BATFE have a say on whether these conversions can be manufactured?
 
Adam_MA said:
Jay... They sell those off the rack at Collectors, so I would have to assume they are legal!
Click to expand...

What I'm worried about is that once I turn my 1911 pistol into a 1911 carbine (rifle), I will not legally be able to turn it back.

Sure, it may be completely legal to sell, buy, and possess. What I want to know is the legality in going from pistol to rifle and back to pistol again.

Out of curiosity, what does Collector's charge for the conversion? Is it cheaper than the $340 off the Mech Tech website?
 
I don't know what they charge...

Regarding changing it to and back...

I remember reading something about, in this state, if you convert a gun (change the barrel) you have to (supposed to) fill out an FA-10 to re-register the gun with the new caliber/barrel length. Then if you change it back again, you should fill out another with the returned specs...
I think I remember Len saying something about this with some revolver he has that came with multiple barrels.

I'm sure one of our more legal savvy members will chime in to clarify this for us.
 
If All else fails call batfe they might be the "bad guys" but when I had questions I found them to be very polite and professional.
Again my memory is not what it used to be but there ads said that the conversion was legal to own and use
Btw you don't have to tell them who you are Etc
 
I don't think the issue is so much if they are federally legal. If they are being manufactured and sold, they most likely are. However the F'd up laws in this state could be the stopping point with this one..

Adam
 
Sorry this thought just popped into my vacant skull,what about the conversion kits to convert Glock,1911 etal to.22 rimfire do they count?
Where"s scrivener when you need em he seems to be up on these things
 
Adam,

Thanks for the link, but that thread's about changing barrels leading to a caliber change. As stupid as it is, I can see the rationale behind requiring an FA-10 for that. If I've got a Glock 22 in .40 S&W, and I swap out the barrel to .357 Sig, the ballistics are completely different (of course).

Now, granted, the thinking behind this gets REAL muddy REAL quick - someone that's going to commit a gun crime isn't going to do it with a legal weapon, let alone submit the forms for a barrel change, but... Since when have things made sense in the Volksrepublik???

I'll send a letter out to the BATFE and post my findings. I'll most likely get the Mech Tech, because I really want a 1911-compatible carbine (I was looking at Marlin Camp 45s, but they're going for $500 - $600 before the FFL transfer fee and shipping).

Thanks for everyone's help!

(And if any of our legal-eagles want to step in and share their collective wisdom on the subject, that'd beat a kick in the @$$ with a frozen boot any day...) [wink]
 
Adam_MA said:
I don't think the issue is so much if they are federally legal. If they are being manufactured and sold, they most likely are. However the F'd up laws in this state could be the stopping point with this one..

Adam
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't think there's any federal issues involved here.

If there's any issue that could even remotely arise, it would be removing the barrel from the Mech Tech unit and mating the rifle stock portion to the 1911 or Glock. But, even givin that, it looks like something that would take some intentional effort. Not so with the Thompson Center. One could easily configure the "handgun" using the rifle stock and a 10" barrel thereby manufacturing an SBR.

The FA-10 thing sounds like one of those "gotcha" /cross all your "T's" and dot all your "I's"/cover you ass situations.

There is a line on the FA-10 where bbl length is filled in. There's also a line where finish is filled in.

Does that mean if someone buys an aftermarket bbl of the same caliber that's only a 1/2 inch longer or shorter than the original bbl, that a new FA-10 must be filed?

What if the gun is refinished in a different color (say in a new polymer color or woodland/camo finish), or someone simply spray paints their rifle in a camo finish. Does a new FA-10 have to be filed?
 
highlander said:
If the MOST outfits won"t send reloading componets here etc here,why take the off chance of incuring the wrath of the AG?
Click to expand...

I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to the underlying issue here... if we lived in just about any other state, even worrying about something as minor as the legality of changing the barrel length or caliber on a firearm least we incur the wrath of our beloved AG would be laughable.
 
highlander said:
The batfe has knowledge of state laws as well so they might be of some help after all
Click to expand...


Talk to 5 different people there and you'll probably get 5 different answers though. [wink]
 

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