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carry gun with a safety
- Thread starter LORD of WAR
- Start date
45collector
NES Member
I think the OP stated that the 92 is too big for pa.
How about Beretta model 84 or 85? The thumb safety is great on those.
I was thinking the Beretta 84/85 would be a good choice too. I don't think he wants to recommend a .380 for a primary self defense gun. My father carried one of these for years. I like them.
I really think that the S&W Third Generation line is probably the way to go. I don't know where you are coming from when you say that the CS line of 3rd Generation guns are not suitable for concealed carry. They were designed for precisely that, and are very trim and compact as are the S&W Models 908 and 457. I have a Model 915 which is a full sized "economy version" of the 5900 series and it is less bulky than my SIG P229 (which I frequently carry). For that matter, my sworn colleagues on the MSP carry full size P226 DAKs concealed (only a relative few are issued the P239) with little difficulty.
Granted, the 3rd Generation Series is no longer in production but examples in NIB condition all the way down, can be easily found.
The real answer might be a revolver, and if it really bothers your father about having no safety, he could leave the hammer resting on an empty chamber thus making it virtually impossible for the gun to fire unless the trigger was pulled...period. In a "J" frame S&W or a Ruger SP101 that means he has 4 shots instead of 5 (unless he goes with a .22, or a .32 in the Ruger). I maintain that a modern double action revolver in sound mechanical condition is probably the safest handgun (from a mechanical standpoint and from the manual of arms to operate) to have and certainly one of the simplest to use. The newly reintroduced Centennial Model with the grip safety would give him the best of all worlds: a safety which needs to be depressed before firing, and he could still have the hammer resting on an empty chamber.
It sounds as if your father is never going to have the interest that you have in firearms, is not a "gun guy" and would be best served with a revolver. You must be very careful not to allow your own predjudices influence this. You have made your pitch, demonstrated the safety aspects of the semi-autos you own, but to no avail. You probably see revolvers as outdated relics with limited firepower, but I'll take a 5 shot Chief's Special over a pen knife anytime. For God's sakes get your father something to carry that might save his life, because right now he isn't carrying anything.
You have been given some excellent suggestions by the people posting, so it is time to be objective. It is about your father, not you. He is not going to overcome the "safety issue" as irrational as it sounds to you, so you have to work within the paremeters that he has imposed. I could never get my father to carry hollowpoint bullets, and that was even after he read Ayoob's book on personal defense.
Mark L.
Granted, the 3rd Generation Series is no longer in production but examples in NIB condition all the way down, can be easily found.
The real answer might be a revolver, and if it really bothers your father about having no safety, he could leave the hammer resting on an empty chamber thus making it virtually impossible for the gun to fire unless the trigger was pulled...period. In a "J" frame S&W or a Ruger SP101 that means he has 4 shots instead of 5 (unless he goes with a .22, or a .32 in the Ruger). I maintain that a modern double action revolver in sound mechanical condition is probably the safest handgun (from a mechanical standpoint and from the manual of arms to operate) to have and certainly one of the simplest to use. The newly reintroduced Centennial Model with the grip safety would give him the best of all worlds: a safety which needs to be depressed before firing, and he could still have the hammer resting on an empty chamber.
It sounds as if your father is never going to have the interest that you have in firearms, is not a "gun guy" and would be best served with a revolver. You must be very careful not to allow your own predjudices influence this. You have made your pitch, demonstrated the safety aspects of the semi-autos you own, but to no avail. You probably see revolvers as outdated relics with limited firepower, but I'll take a 5 shot Chief's Special over a pen knife anytime. For God's sakes get your father something to carry that might save his life, because right now he isn't carrying anything.
You have been given some excellent suggestions by the people posting, so it is time to be objective. It is about your father, not you. He is not going to overcome the "safety issue" as irrational as it sounds to you, so you have to work within the paremeters that he has imposed. I could never get my father to carry hollowpoint bullets, and that was even after he read Ayoob's book on personal defense.
Mark L.
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The 3913 is a slim, single stack design: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...d=10001&productId=14726&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y
S+W 3rd gen. They're larded up with safeties, so would probably be right up his alley. Most of them are cheap, and a lot of options exist for magazines, holsters, etc. There are tons of the things available used.
-Mike
-Mike
Yes, exactly! Matt, Ruger P series is what I recommend your father look at first.
Built like hammers and very dependable.
Bob
Chris
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What is really needed is some education to show all the internal safeties that exist on modern firearms. Start with the safety on the revolvers and show that the trigger needs to be kept to the rear for the gun to fire. Then go on to show how firing pins in modern semi's are held until the trigger is almost to the rear. Show hammer blocks on the Sigs that prevent the hammer from reaching the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled to the rear.
Once he understands that the NEED for the old external safety simply does not exist as it is all tied to the trigger, he might start to feel more open to the other designs out there.
Once he understands that the NEED for the old external safety simply does not exist as it is all tied to the trigger, he might start to feel more open to the other designs out there.
Unless, of course, he is worried about accidentally hitting the trigger. Sure, everyone will say to get training, but this is someone's father, you know, old school. Don't kill the messenger, I have a father and know you sometimes can't teach an old dog new tricks.
He doesn't work at the AG's office by any chance?
Anyway - what about a 3rd Gen S&W single stack 9mm - slim and has a safety. You mention you don't like them but what does HE like - it's his gun after all.
Another option would be a Beretta 84/85 in 380 - small, etc.
good luck
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
You thought wrong.
Chris
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I can appreciate the issue.
However, I didn't just say "Get more training".
I think the 'training' should specifically stress the fact that just because a manual safety isn't visible does not mean the gun has no safety. The OP should make the effort to show his dad just how the new internal safety designs work so that he has a better understanding of why the pistol is built the way it is.
It's very much like having an older car where you have to adjust the lifters and points every so often. The owner is going to want to know how hard a job it is and will resist a new design that does not allow for the adjustment. That is, until they truly understand that a better design was found that makes the adjustment no longer necessary.
It sounds in this case that the desire for a safety is based more on a misconception that if there isn't a manual one, there is no safety at all. This could not be further from the truth.
Also, the OP should make the effort to stress the training required with a manual safety is a bit more involved than without. As with everything, in a stressful situation a person operates as they have trained. When the Semi-automatics first hit the police en mass, there were many cases of the officers used to revolvers pulling the semi and being unable to fire due to the safety.
The OP needs to stress holster design that protects the trigger (the old open trigger revolver holsters are a no-no)
In my experience, aversion to technology comes from a point of view that conflicts with the new reality. The first requirement is to understand WHY there is resistance and then proceed to explain/show why those beliefs are no longer valid.
To ignore this and simply try to meet the desires ultimately will fail.
SemiAutoSam
Banned
Ditto
A Sig P229 in 9mm or 40SW will solve this problem Oh and a bonus the P229 in 9mm will accept the 20 round mags that were originally built for the P226.
A Sig P229 in 9mm or 40SW will solve this problem Oh and a bonus the P229 in 9mm will accept the 20 round mags that were originally built for the P226.
Chris, I sometimes carry a Ruger P90 with safety/decocker and the safety is always ON. Yes, it takes me 0.5 second longer to get the gun in play than you because of the safety, but no one - absolutely no one - could ever claim that I may not have meant to shoot. Deactivating the safety before firing means that it was a very deliberate act for me to pull the trigger (and not an accident or unintentioned).
That is why I chose to add the extra layer of safety to this gun I carry.
Then perhaps he's simply not ready to carry a gun. Sounds like he needs a course or two and or a lot more range time. If he knows that little about the defensive tool he's looking to carry, he's probably ill equipped to do it. Under stress, he will forget about that safety and wind up dead. Got nothing against them (carry a 1911 myself) but they do take additional training and range time to make working with an external safety second nature, and he's clearly not there yet.
Sounds like people are trying to teach an old dog new tricks. Instead of offering answers, they are trying to change the question. While "thinking outside the box" is good for younger people (under ~50?), this isn't so workable on older folks, and you'll likely meet with heavy resistance or a total, outright refusal. Think of older people like teenagers, with more experience, and it is easier to understand.
Edit: Add in that you have to speak VERY loud, and repeat yourself, to avoid confusion. Once confusion sets in, forget it, because that becomes their new baseline and their gospel and truth, even if misheard.
Edit: Add in that you have to speak VERY loud, and repeat yourself, to avoid confusion. Once confusion sets in, forget it, because that becomes their new baseline and their gospel and truth, even if misheard.
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The 4513tsw does have a safety
Executive
NES Member
http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51769
(ahem...)
This would be perfect.
And I'll include a nice holster for your Dad as well.
Chris
(ahem...)
This would be perfect.
And I'll include a nice holster for your Dad as well.
Chris
ok so heres where were at...
i gave him my usp45c tonight...he said its way too big
tried showing him my 642 and he said "what do i want that for"
next i said to him "listen...the only safety you need is keeping your finger off the trigger and the gun wont go off!"
to which he said "it wont go off with a safety...i want a safety" i didnt even bother to tell him the safeties arent always safe!
so i think if he thinks the hk is too big then hes gonna thing all the smith autos are too big was well...guess its the walther????
i gave him my usp45c tonight...he said its way too big
tried showing him my 642 and he said "what do i want that for"
next i said to him "listen...the only safety you need is keeping your finger off the trigger and the gun wont go off!"
to which he said "it wont go off with a safety...i want a safety" i didnt even bother to tell him the safeties arent always safe!
so i think if he thinks the hk is too big then hes gonna thing all the smith autos are too big was well...guess its the walther????
The P7 is a compact gun... but maybe not compact enough. I guess the PPK is probably the best choice in this situation but you want to make sure it's a good one. Some of the PPKs have serious reliability issues in my experience.
Okay...so why not take him to a well stocked gun shop, or perhaps a gun show and let him see the full gamut of handguns available and let him make the choice? There is much wisdom in the observations of Coyote 33 regarding older people...as much as I hate to agree with that observation
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
and I speak from my own experience here ![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
.Mark L.
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Okay...so why not take him to a well stocked gun shop, or perhaps a gun show and let him see the full gamut of handguns available and let him make the choice? There is much wisdom in the observations of Coyote 33 regarding older people...as much as I hate to agree with that observation
Mark L.
Another thing that may be a hiccup here is that you are talking to your Dad - if he's anything like mine then you are automatically an idiot that obviously know nothing about [Topic X] and your advice is worthless.
Of course when the guy behind the counter says exactly what you told him he's a genius...
Good luck
I think I'd stop focusing on the technical issues and work on his comfort level.
If he is new to CCW with little firearm experience, a 1911 in condition 1 just isn't going to happen.
Get him the Kenik book and there are two new Ayoob books out too.
The best forum to follow other than this one is the CCW section of http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/
(A CCW section is the one thing this site is missing now that I think about it)
I have learned a ton of info from that site and after a long time came to the conclusion that a pocket carried J frame has a lot going for it once I find the right pants. He may come to a different conclusion.
Then as mark056 suggested, let him make his own choice.
Bill
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Honestly even though you think a .380 is to small just recommend a Beretta 84/85 like said earlier. Its still a pretty small gun with a manual safety. The magazine capacity imo is a little low for a .380 in that size gun but your running out of options.
