DAO or DA/SA carry options in MA

S

spratocaster

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I currently carry an S&W 640. It's easy to hide and the extra weight of the steel frame make it bearable for .357 magnum loads. However lately I have been thinking that I would like a little more capacity and faster reloads. I would also like to try something a bit lighter. Most of the guns I own are either revolvers or DA/SA so I would like to keep a familiar manual of arms. I am looking for a bottom feeder that fits the following criteria:

1. DAO or DA/SA
2. Atleast 7+1 capacity
3. 9mm or larger caliber (would prefer 9mm or 45acp)
4. Size appropriate for belt carry (compact or subcompact)
5. Polymer or Alloy frame that is reasonably light.
6. Readily available in MA (doesn't have to be compliant but needs to be easy to get a hold of)
7. Reliable. If I'm trusting my life to it I need to be confident that it will go bang when I need it to.

I would like to carry mostly OWB under an untucked shirt or sweater, except in the summer, so thinner is definitely better.

I have looked at the PM9 and P9, but have seen that there have been some quality issues with these. Also Kahr customer service doesn't seem to be "industry leading". Is this my only option in MA?
 
I've got the Kahr CM9 and haven't had any issues whatsoever. I haven't really heard much about quality issues. I was going to suggest the PM9 or Shield.
 
I like my PM9. I think that is the best option for pocket carry.

If you are willing to belt carry, I would get something bigger than the PM9. The K9 is the same as the P9 but stainless steel and great quality, but it weighs the same as your 640.

I've got a K9, MK9, PM9, and K40, so I do like Kahrs. The only one I had trouble with was my K40, where the rear sight became loose. I sent it back to Kahr and they fixed it.

I carry a Glock 23 these days. It has the capacity that you want, but it is just as heavy as your 640 empty (and more loaded). The Glock 23 is also a lot thicker than P9/K9 so it is harder to conceal.
 
Maybe it's just internet rumor, but I keep seeing posts that say that the polymer Kahr's are hit or miss. Maybe the issues are during the "break in period". One consistent thing seems to be FTF the first round of a mag when manually racking the slide (works fine if releasing the slide with the slide stop).

So I'll put the P9 on the short list. Is this the only option in MA?
 
spratocaster said:
Maybe it's just internet rumor, but I keep seeing posts that say that the polymer Kahr's are hit or miss. Maybe the issues are during the "break in period". One consistent thing seems to be FTF the first round of a mag when manually racking the slide (works fine if releasing the slide with the slide stop).
Click to expand...

Well, someone didn't read their owner's manual. From the Kahr manual, page 16:
Pull the slide fully to the rear and lock it back using the Slide Stop. Next push down on the Slide Stop to chamber the first round into the barrel. Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide. This may cause the slide to not go fully into battery.
Click to expand...
 
jtnf said:
I can't speak to its' carry-ability, but Sig P250C is available new retail in Massachusetts and is DAO. There's been a lot of complaints about its' trigger, but I've got a lot of time on mine and have had no problems.
Click to expand...

A quick search looked promising. I will have to look into it. Are the complaints just that it's DAO? As long as it's smooth I don't really have an issue with DAO.

Looks like there is a subcompact version. Anyone know if this is available in MA or would I have to buy the compact and a subcompact conversion kit?
 
M1911 said:
I like my PM9. I think that is the best option for pocket carry.

If you are willing to belt carry, I would get something bigger than the PM9. The K9 is the same as the P9 but stainless steel and great quality, but it weighs the same as your 640.

I've got a K9, MK9, PM9, and K40, so I do like Kahrs. The only one I had trouble with was my K40, where the rear sight became loose. I sent it back to Kahr and they fixed it.

I carry a Glock 23 these days. It has the capacity that you want, but it is just as heavy as your 640 empty (and more loaded). The Glock 23 is also a lot thicker than P9/K9 so it is harder to conceal.
Click to expand...

I like my pm9 as well. disappears in an MTAC. 6+1 or the extended but hideous 7 rd mag.

Walther PPS is good too.

I have a brand new glock 30 that's going to be my carry gun for when I'm not at work (pm9 is my office work gun [rofl]). 10+1 of 45acp

It's thick but light, kind of heavy with 11 rounds of 45 in it but I can hide it under a t shirt in an MTAC.




you must have long t shirts if you can conceal OWB under just a T.
 
spratocaster said:
That's fine at the range, but who does a reload using the slide stop?
Click to expand...

Most USPSA and IDPA shooters. It is faster than grabbing the slide and pulling back on it. As you rebuild your grip with your left hand, push down on the slide stop with your left thumb.
 
I usually manually put one in the chamber through the breech and drop the slide on it. then insert a full mag for carry.

At the range, the slide would be locked back from firing the last round. New mag goes in and then I drop the slide with the slide stop.

However, my pm9 seems to have no problems if I insert a mag and then chamber a round by racking the slide and letting it go.
 
BattleSnail said:
I like my pm9 as well. disappears in an MTAC. 6+1 or the extended but hideous 7 rd mag.

Walther PPS is good too.

I have a brand new glock 30 that's going to be my carry gun for when I'm not at work (pm9 is my office work gun [rofl]). 10+1 of 45acp

It's thick but light, kind of heavy with 11 rounds of 45 in it but I can hide it under a t shirt in an MTAC.




you must have long t shirts if you can conceal OWB under just a T.
Click to expand...

I like how the PPS feels in the hand but not sure about mag release. Also the MA trigger is brutal and converting it to a Non-MA trigger is not a simple task. It's also not really DAO as it's a partially cocked striker like the Glock. Re-holstering a striker fired gun IWB in my truck from a seated position seems like an ND waiting to happen.
 
M1911 said:
Most USPSA and IDPA shooters. It is faster than grabbing the slide and pulling back on it. As you rebuild your grip with your left hand, push down on the slide stop with your left thumb.
Click to expand...

Every defensive shooting class I have taken has said to aggressively rack the slide on reloads. I would have to re-train myself to use the slide stop. I guess it's and excuse to go to the range.
 
spratocaster said:
A quick search looked promising. I will have to look into it. Are the complaints just that it's DAO? As long as it's smooth I don't really have an issue with DAO.

Looks like there is a subcompact version. Anyone know if this is available in MA or would I have to buy the compact and a subcompact conversion kit?
Click to expand...

The fire control mechanism in the 250C is common from full size down to subcompact, and it the FCM that carries the serial number.
Grips can be swapped for thicker or thinner within a frame size, but going from compact to subcompact requires a new slide and barrel regardless of caliber interchange (which you can also do.)
The trigger pull is long and hard, with a long reset. The FCM design also does not lend itself to performing trigger jobs... There's little room for improvement.

I have a range day scheduled for Sunday morning. My club is an hour and fifteen minutes from Uxbridge, tho. If you don't mind the drive you are free to take it for a test drive.
Mass Firearms School is where I bought my P250C... They are 30 minutes up rt 16 from Uxbridge, and I believe they will let you try a range gun before buying one. (Pay for the ammo, I think.)
Check what they have available for a test drive, and what they have in stock.
 
spratocaster said:
Every defensive shooting class I have taken has said to aggressively rack the slide on reloads. I would have to re-train myself to use the slide stop. I guess it's and excuse to go to the range.
Click to expand...

I've been to about 225 hours of formal firearms training (both defensive and competition), including Ayoob, SigArms Academy, Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain), Mike Seeklander, etc. There are two schools of thought about how to close the slide when you run dry.

The rack-the-slide school of thought claims that you will lose dexterity in a gunfight, that pressing down on the slide stop is a "fine motor skill", that racking the slide is a "gross motor skill" and that you won't be able to do "fine motor skills" in a gunfight. There are a number of curious things about this school of thought. First, they use pseudo-scientific terms to make themselves sound authoritative, but they use them incorrectly. Both pressing the slide stop and pulling back on the slide are fine motor skills. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_motor_skill

Second, they assert that pressing the slide stop is harder than racking the slide. They expect you to be able to press a lever (the trigger) while not disturbing the sights, but they claim you won't be able to press a different lever. They expect you to be able to press the magazine release, but claim you won't be able to press the slide stop. Do you not see the inconsistency?

Is it actually harder? I've competed in IDPA for several years. No, it isn't as stressful as a gunfight, but it is stressful. As a safety officer, I've seen people screw up in some pretty imaginative ways, but I've never seen someone miss the slide stop during a reload. I have seen a master-level IDPA shooter grasp the slide with his hand and have his hand slip off (twice during the same attempt at a reload!) without retracting the slide fully.

The other school of thought is to use the slide stop because it is faster. About 1/4 to 1/2 second faster. I'll take 1/4 second, thank you very much.

While many (most?) trainers teach racking the slide, Ayoob taught both. He explained the fine motor skill argument and why he thought it was crap. He said try both, pick one, and train with it. Randy Cain taught racking the slide, but he actually uses the slide stop himself.

There are some guns which have lousy slide stops (I'm looking at you, Glock) that are very small. I don't rack the slide on mine because 1) I've replaced the standard slide stop with the Glock extended slide stop and 2) most of my Glocks close the slide when I slam the magazine home.
 
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spratocaster said:
I like how the PPS feels in the hand but not sure about mag release. Also the MA trigger is brutal and converting it to a Non-MA trigger is not a simple task. It's also not really DAO as it's a partially cocked striker like the Glock. Re-holstering a striker fired gun IWB in my truck from a seated position seems like an ND waiting to happen.
Click to expand...

really? Why? I do it all the time. How are you going to ND if you're finger's off the trigger? Also how often are you drawing and reholstering in you truck that this would be an issue?

The PM9 is also striker fired, as is the PPS.

True non "assisted double actions" are hard to find outside of wheel guns. Sig make the DAK action but I don't know much about it. edit: walther p99 also is true DAO, no pre load on the striker
 
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spratocaster said:
Every defensive shooting class I have taken has said to aggressively rack the slide on reloads. I would have to re-train myself to use the slide stop. I guess it's and excuse to go to the range.
Click to expand...

You are correct, best practice is to grab the slide and release, taught in every class I have taken. Fumbling with a slide stop under fire is not good.

On topic, I like the Kahr P9. I just purchased one and love it. As noted in the thread there really is a break in period. Thing hardly worked for the first 50 rounds and by the time I was closing in on 200 is was flawless. I wanted the PM9 but it was tiny in my hand and if you roll with the extended mag its the same grip as the P9. The PM9 would have the shorter barrel for sure, its about an inch.
 
BattleSnail said:
I usually manually put one in the chamber through the breech and drop the slide on it. then insert a full mag for carry.

At the range, the slide would be locked back from firing the last round. New mag goes in and then I drop the slide with the slide stop.

However, my pm9 seems to have no problems if I insert a mag and then chamber a round by racking the slide and letting it go.
Click to expand...

That's what I do, or just lock slide back insert mag then chamber a round then insert full mag.

I also never have any issues with my CM9 if I insert a mag then rack the slide to chamber a round. As long as I do it fairly quick.
 
JRT said:
You are correct, best practice is to grab the slide and release, taught in every class I have taken. Fumbling with a slide stop under fire is not good.
Click to expand...

Baloney.

If you can pull the trigger and push the magazine release then you can push the slide stop, and you'll save 1/4 second doing so. And I've seen hands slip off slides while trying to pull them back.

- - - Updated - - -

BattleSnail said:
True non "assisted double actions" are hard to find outside of wheel guns. Sig make the DAK action but I don't know much about it. edit: walther p99 also is true DAO, no pre load on the striker
Click to expand...

Smith & Wesson 3953. But you'd have to find a used one and they aren't easy to find.
 
M1911 said:
Baloney.

If you can pull the trigger and push the magazine release then you can push the slide stop, and you'll save 1/4 second doing so. And I've seen hands slip off slides while trying to pull them back.
Click to expand...

I'm just saying what I have been taught, and Ayoob did not teach both techniches in my class. Either way its total off topic, you should start another thread if you want to keep discussing it.
 
M1911 said:
I've been to about 225 hours of formal firearms training (both defensive and competition), including Ayoob, SigArms Academy, Cumberland Tactics (Randy Cain), Mike Seeklander, etc. There are two schools of thought about how to close the slide when you run dry.

The rack-the-slide school of thought claims that you will lose dexterity in a gunfight, that pressing down on the slide stop is a "fine motor skill", that racking the slide is a "gross motor skill" and that you won't be able to do "fine motor skills" in a gunfight. There are a number of curious things about this school of thought. First, they use pseudo-scientific terms to make themselves sound authoritative, but they use them incorrectly. Both pressing the slide stop and pulling back on the slide stop are fine motor skills. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_motor_skill

Second, they assert that pressing the slide stop is harder than racking the slide. They expect you to be able to press a lever (the trigger) while not disturbing the sights, but they claim you won't be able to press a different lever. They expect you to be able to press the magazine release, but claim you won't be able to press the slide stop. Do you not see the inconsistency?

Is it actually harder? I've competed in IDPA for several years. No, it isn't as stressful as a gunfight, but it is stressful. As a safety officer, I've seen people screw up in some pretty imaginative ways, but I've never seen someone miss the slide stop during a reload. I have seen a master-level IDPA shooter grasp the slide with his hand and have his hand slip off (twice during the same attempt at a reload!) without retracting the slide fully.

The other school of thought is to use the slide stop because it is faster. About 1/4 to 1/2 second faster. I'll take 1/4 second, thank you very much.

While many (most?) trainers teach racking the slide, Ayoob taught both. He explained the fine motor skill argument and why he thought it was crap. He said try both, pick one, and train with it. Randy Cain taught racking the slide, but he actually uses the slide stop himself.

There are some guns which have lousy slide stops (I'm looking at you, Glock) that are very small. I don't rack the slide on mine because 1) I've replaced the standard slide stop with the Glock extended slide stop and 2) most of my Glocks close the slide when I slam the magazine home.
Click to expand...

Yeah I have always been told that you won't be able to reliably use the slide stop under stress. Your argument makes sense though as every other part of the reload takes pretty fine motor control. i have definitely slipped off the slide in practicing reloads. Maybe I'll try practicing using the slide stop and see which I can do the fastest reliably.
 
A gun with an external hammer would be the best piece of mind.
Click to expand...

The SIG P239 is a decent gun, DA/SA with an external hammer. No manual safety. It is significantly bigger than a Kahr K9, but it is single stack. Alloy frame, but still relatively heavy at about 30 oz empty. 8+1 in 9mm. I've had a couple, but they never really appealed to me -- I'm just not a DA/SA kind of guy.

They are approved in MA, so you can get a new one at a gun store. I've still got one in 9mm. If you'd like to take a ride out to Harvard Sportsmen's, you can try mine.

- - - Updated - - -

spratocaster said:
Yeah I have always been told that you won't be able to reliably use the slide stop under stress. Your argument makes sense though as every other part of the reload takes pretty fine motor control. i have definitely slipped off the slide in practicing reloads. Maybe I'll try practicing using the slide stop and see which I can do the fastest reliably.
Click to expand...

If you find that the slide works best for you, that's great. Sorry, this issue is one of my hobby horses. When trying it with the slide stop, depress the slide stop with your left thumb, not your right thumb. To depress it with your right thumb, you would probably need to shift your grip. Using your left thumb allows you to maintain your master grip.
 
Last edited:
M1911 said:
I suggest that you use some critical thinking and try it both ways.
Click to expand...

I use the slide stop. Its a habit I simply cannot break after 27 years of competitive pistol shooting. I was stating how I have been instructed many times in many defensive pistol courses.
 

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