deciding on a retreat

[Varmint]

Well there may be some truth in that but I think you are working under the assumption that somehow only the residents of the inner city are going to be fleeing, this is both class and race driven thinking. White suburbia will succumb to the same mentality and Muffy and Buffy will load their 2.5 exceptional children (one of whom I'm sure has some kind of developmental disorder but will overcome it because he is a "super kid" who will become a brain surgeon) put on their Birkenstocks, load their SUV with tofu chips and head north cuz they remember what a great time they had at Bar Harbor last summer. You are deluding yourself if you think your neighbors are going to form little bands of militias and fight delaying actions. You are going to be fighting your neighbors and if they know you prep, even a little or have guns, you're a target. Shelter in place will take on a whole new meaning when you have to take out that nice guy two houses down who let you borrow his power tools and now wants your food and your guns and will kill you for them.

As far as a retreat goes, it's all about timing. You have to be astute enough to read the indicators and warnings to know when to go. That can be tricky. There can be false starts and stops. Historically when things collapse and devolve into utter chaos, it happens very quickly. You have to egress quickly and be prepared to fight your way to your retreat. I don't mean just inner city denizens, you're gonna have to fight your way thru places like Newton, Cambridge and Brookline. People in Roxbury, JP, Lawrence and Lowell already know how to survive, probably better than you do, many of them predatory and street smart, have better personal combative skills learned on the streets and in prison stints where there are no second place winners. Having a tricked up AR a years supply of dehydrated food and an A Frame in the North Woods of Maine ain't gonna do ya much good if you are stuck in Chelmsford cuz 495 is impassable and all the gangs from Lowell are raping and pillaging the area, and your neighbors are looting the stores and trying to kill you for your guns.

IMO it boils down to getting the hell out of Dodge now and living far away from civilization which you can still do in these United States, or shelter in place and harden the site where you live now. Each has their advantages and disadvantages. If you survive in either scenario, you and your family will become the strong men/women of your "valley" and people will come to you for protection, a new Neo-feudalism will evolve where the strong will protect the weak IMO. You will have plenty of serfs to do your bidding. You have to be realistic not romantic when it comes to this prepper stuff. Imagine what living in a place like Somalia is like with war lords and stuff and that's what living in post apocalyptic Amerika is probably gonna be like on a good day.

I think there are some scenarios where having a house up north will be good - like a plague where you can isolate yourself from population. But any scenario where suburbanites are killing each other for food, you're kidding yourself if you think you'll be safe just cause you're in a nicely stocked house a 2 hour drive from Boston.

I also don't subscribe to the common wisdom that everyone will turn into murderous killers cause there's no food - history doesn't support that claim, except in places where most people were already murderous. But there will certainly be enough of those types to make life very dangerous.

 

[Varmint]

How far do you think the average unprepared person would actually be able to get?

Heck, how far do you think even the average 'prepared' person will make it?

Every heard of the Long March? That was 6000 miles of rough terrain, and they weren't prepared either. Desperate people can perform startling feats.

 

[mark056]

Every heard of the Long March? That was 6000 miles of rough terrain, and they weren't prepared either. Desperate people can perform startling feats.

Good point, but the Long March was ruthless, led by a ruthless man Chairman Mao and done by a people who had a much different set of values with regard to human life. In a non-Western Society where life is viewed very cheaply, and in a country regularly visited by hardship over the centuries where famine, war and plague were not infrequent events, and where the Chinese peasantry was accustomed to hardship, especially from 1910 onward when the country was in a continuous civil war and ruled by ruthless war lords, I'm not sure if you if the Long March is a totally valid analogy. It is valid in the sense that a strong ruthless man, with a dedicated cadre, can eventually seize enough power and enough influence to rally enough people to achieve seemingly impossible goals. Stalin did a similar thing when he moved all of the USSR's industrial capability east of the Urals, lock,stock and barrel. People can be whipped into shape, but you have more faith in Muffy and Buffy than I do...I guess. If you have such great faith, then why have a retreat at all?

 

[FrugalFannie]

Every heard of the Long March? That was 6000 miles of rough terrain, and they weren't prepared either. Desperate people can perform startling feats.

Look at our population today. Trust me, I deal with the "average person" every day. The majority of them (97%) wouldn't make it 6 miles never mind 6000.

 

[namedpipes]

Look at our population today. Trust me, I deal with the "average person" every day. The majority of them (97%) wouldn't make it 6 miles never mind 6000.

If 97% of a million people fleeing Metro Boston because of [insert epic disaster here], die off on the trek, that leaves THIRTY THOUSAND hungry, pissed off people that YOU have to deal with.

The sheer NUMBERS of people make it inevitable that you'll have to deal with the the problem.

Yes, have a place to retreat to and defend but if you assume that you'll never have defend against the "Zombie" hordes, you're not taking proper measures to prepare.

 

[Varmint]

Good point, but the Long March was ruthless, led by a ruthless man Chairman Mao and done by a people who had a much different set of values with regard to human life. In a non-Western Society where life is viewed very cheaply, and in a country regularly visited by hardship over the centuries where famine, war and plague were not infrequent events, and where the Chinese peasantry was accustomed to hardship, especially from 1910 onward when the country was in a continuous civil war and ruled by ruthless war lords, I'm not sure if you if the Long March is a totally valid analogy. It is valid in the sense that a strong ruthless man, with a dedicated cadre, can eventually seize enough power and enough influence to rally enough people to achieve seemingly impossible goals. Stalin did a similar thing when he moved all of the USSR's industrial capability east of the Urals, lock,stock and barrel. People can be whipped into shape, but you have more faith in Muffy and Buffy than I do...I guess. If you have such great faith, then why have a retreat at all?

Yeah, certainly the average American has not experienced the hardship a 1930s Chinese had known. I think my point was that ordinary people are capable of great endurance when necessary for survival, even if they may appear soft during the good times. Sure, your 350 lb out of shape, diabetic PC gamer is probably a lost cause when SHTF, but many people will probably surprise you.

I do think America has gotten way too soft – our government tries so hard to keep us from experiencing any hardship, that it’s likely setting us up for something much worse.

 

[Kevin_NH]

I do think America has gotten way too soft – our government tries so hard to keep us from experiencing any hardship, that it’s likely setting us up for something much worse.

Agreed. OTOH, never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

Both major parties have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo for as long as possible, at any cost.

If 97% of a million people fleeing Metro Boston because of [insert epic disaster here], die off on the trek, that leaves THIRTY THOUSAND hungry, pissed off people that YOU have to deal with.

The sheer NUMBERS of people make it inevitable that you'll have to deal with the the problem. Yes, have a place to retreat to and defend but if you assume that you'll never have defend against the "Zombie" hordes, you're not taking proper measures to prepare.

All the more reason to be as far out from population centers as you can be. Better to deal with the 30K starving survivors on day 22 than the be in the path of the initial mass exodus of a million well-fed but slightly peckish "zombies" on day 2 of TEOTWAWKI.

I'm looking at a couple properties to the north. One is only an acre, but secluded (so far off the road i wasn't sure if it had electricity) a small river bordering one side, and a small pond on the property. No neighbors appear to be visible from property. looks to be on enough of a slope that flooding from the river wouldn't be a problem. I'm assuming the drive way is a ROW through a neighbor's property because it's so far from the road.

As long as you get to know your new neighbors before you have to bug out your 'retreat', I would go with the more secluded of the options. Keep in mind that a secluded unoccupied home is more at risk while society is not-yet-collapsed, so you'll have to spend more time and effort on monitoring and maintaining the house and driveway when you're not using it.

the other is 8 acres of woods, looks like steeper, hilly terrain. elevation ranges from about 300' where the house sits to 480' at the peak of the hill behind the house. no surface water is apparent on property,

While more acres tends to satisfy a psychological need, hilly terrain has limited utility.

 

[Steve Marshall]

Interested how that 3%- 30,000- make a beeline to me. Given that Boston residents wouldn't go east, it's more than likely they'll start heading out along all the compass points. The ones going North will run into the Salem/Nashua crowd going South. Due to greater numbers, they'll prevail. But like anything else they will not track true and slowly will disperse. I'm far more likely to encounter Concord and Laconia N.H. refugees. You live more than 10-15 miles from a city/town with less than 100,000 of population, there will be no horde to speak of.

 

[namedpipes]

Interested how that 3%- 30,000- make a beeline to me. Given that Boston residents wouldn't go east, it's more than likely they'll start heading out along all the compass points. The ones going North will run into the Salem/Nashua crowd going South. Due to greater numbers, they'll prevail. But like anything else they will not track true and slowly will disperse. I'm far more likely to encounter Concord and Laconia N.H. refugees. You live more than 10-15 miles from a city/town with less than 100,000 of population, there will be no horde to speak of.

Fail to prepare: Prepare to fail.

 

[Varmint]

Agreed. OTOH, never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

Both major parties have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo for as long as possible, at any cost.

I don't think our politicians are stupid, they're smart people, just very selfish. It's why we need term limits for Congress.

 

[Steve Marshall]

namedpipes, I'm a reasonably intelligent man. Care to explain why you felt it necessary to add-- Fail to prepare: Prepare to fail. Does it have anything to do with that Gif under your name? Trust me, not only would I not know how to prepare for that, I'd be inclined towards preparing to fail.

 

[namedpipes]

namedpipes, I'm a reasonably intelligent man. Care to explain why you felt it necessary to add-- Fail to prepare: Prepare to fail. Does it have anything to do with that Gif under your name? Trust me, not only would I not know how to prepare for that, I'd be inclined towards preparing to fail.

I interpreted your post to mean that you feel the likelihood of the urban hordes coming to a town near you is low enough not to be a concern.

That might be true. It might not be. Not preparing for the possibility isn't a good idea, IMHO. Preparing for it could range from storing extra cookies to burying claymores.

If that isn't what you meant, my abject apologies. It wouldn't be the first time I owed someone a beer for misunderstanding something they said.

 

[namedpipes]

(She's pretty freaky, hunh?)

 

[headednorth]

I don't think our politicians are stupid, they're smart people, just very selfish. It's why we need term limits for Congress.

Sums it up better...


psychopathy

noun, plural psychopathies. Psychiatry. 1. a mental disorder in which an individual manifests amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.

 

[JayMcB]

Agreed. OTOH, never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity.

Both major parties have a strong incentive to maintain the status quo for as long as possible, at any cost.

All the more reason to be as far out from population centers as you can be. Better to deal with the 30K starving survivors on day 22 than the be in the path of the initial mass exodus of a million well-fed but slightly peckish "zombies" on day 2 of TEOTWAWKI.


As long as you get to know your new neighbors before you have to bug out your 'retreat', I would go with the more secluded of the options. Keep in mind that a secluded unoccupied home is more at risk while society is not-yet-collapsed, so you'll have to spend more time and effort on monitoring and maintaining the house and driveway when you're not using it.


While more acres tends to satisfy a psychological need, hilly terrain has limited utility.

I won't speak to the other points, but on the last point, I will disagree. Do not ignore the high ground.

I have 100+ acres of hilly terrain in NH.
It's north facing, so that's a definite (-), but:

It goes up to a ridge that is all but unscalable from the other side, (you'd need climbing equipment) affording some protection from the 'horde' from that direction. Vehicular traffic from that direction is not an option, not even a trials dirt bike could do it.
There is game on the land, so that is a benefit. My game camera shows them walking right up my driveway. They don't care about the hills.
There is a planted food plot ~200 yards or so behind the house. Uphill, but easy to scout. The tree stand above it makes for easy targeting.
There is an almost unlimited amount of hardwood deadfall that I need only drag (downhill) to burn.
There are creeks/springs which run down from the ridge all year, and keep my dug well very well supplied.
Having a house up a ridge gives excellent scenic vistas, AKA fields of fire.
The 1100 feet my house is back from the road (up hill) will tire you out just climbing it.
The ridge behind is an excellent backstop.
Right below the house is a terraced acre plus of land where the septic is, it would do (has done) well as a vegetable plot, and after the drainage work did last year I could literally plumb spring-fed irrigation to it.
At the bottom of my hilly terrain is my pond, which is stocked with trout and spring fed all year long, and is a water supply for the apple trees and blueberry bushes at the bottom of the property.

So if you want to grow wheat, hilly terrain may not be so great.....but don't count it out.

 

[RoterTeufel]

1 acre may seem like a lot now... and it is. BUT, it will not really separate you from your neighbors.

I've got .97 acres and I'm pretty far back. My neighbor to the right has a little more, but he's close to the street. Other most of the rest is around a 1/2 acre - 1 acre. I hear plenty, but its mostly quiet.

I should have pushed harder 4 years ago.

Make sure you have a garage, you're going to need it!

 

[knfmn]

I won't speak to the other points, but on the last point, I will disagree. Do not ignore the high ground.

I have 100+ acres of hilly terrain in NH.
It's north facing, so that's a definite (-), but:

It goes up to a ridge that is all but unscalable from the other side, (you'd need climbing equipment) affording some protection from the 'horde' from that direction. Vehicular traffic from that direction is not an option, not even a trials dirt bike could do it.
There is game on the land, so that is a benefit. My game camera shows them walking right up my driveway. They don't care about the hills.
There is a planted food plot ~200 yards or so behind the house. Uphill, but easy to scout. The tree stand above it makes for easy targeting.
There is an almost unlimited amount of hardwood deadfall that I need only drag (downhill) to burn.
There are creeks/springs which run down from the ridge all year, and keep my dug well very well supplied.
Having a house up a ridge gives excellent scenic vistas, AKA fields of fire.
The 1100 feet my house is back from the road (up hill) will tire you out just climbing it.
The ridge behind is an excellent backstop.
Right below the house is a terraced acre plus of land where the septic is, it would do (has done) well as a vegetable plot, and after the drainage work did last year I could literally plumb spring-fed irrigation to it.
At the bottom of my hilly terrain is my pond, which is stocked with trout and spring fed all year long, and is a water supply for the apple trees and blueberry bushes at the bottom of the property.

So if you want to grow wheat, hilly terrain may not be so great.....but don't count it out.

Sounds like a great place. I'm very jealous.

 

[Kevin_NH]

1 acre may seem like a lot now... and it is. BUT, it will not really separate you from your neighbors. I've got .97 acres and I'm pretty far back.

A square 1-acre lot is about 208 feet on a side, so it's possible to have good separation from your neighbors with just an acre, but with the way subdivisions are developed, it usually doesn't work out that way.

Also, if you plan on heating with your own wood, the rule of thumb is that a well-managed woodlot can yield half a cord of wood per acre per year. Expect less as you move north.

 

[JayMcB]

A square 1-acre lot is about 208 feet on a side, so it's possible to have good separation from your neighbors with just an acre, but with the way subdivisions are developed, it usually doesn't work out that way.

Also, if you plan on heating with your own wood, the rule of thumb is that a well-managed woodlot can yield half a cord of wood per acre per year. Expect less as you move north.

I can't even keep up with deadfall. Choosing land with hardwoods is key.

 

[mibro]

I'd be more worried about the local neighbors up north who live near the retreat. Mine has only a few hundred people living in the town, but odds are at least 100 of them are total sacks of crap who would have no problem venturing up into the hills where they remember seeing vacation retreats when they last hunted, to see what they can pillage.

A friend of mine who lives in Nashua bought a retreat property in northern NH, a cabin on 15 or so acres at the end of a dirt road adjacent to National Forest. Spent a couple of months of week-ends hauling his survival supplies and dried food to the cabin. Came back two weeks later and the locals had cleaned him out, though they did leave some of the less palatable dried food I think.

The whole bugout theory is deeply flawed. If the SHTF as a flatlander in your retreat all you'd be is fresh meat for the locals unless you bring an infantry squad with you.

 

[Waher]

I don't get why you would want a retreat up north where the winter will likely kill you if things really go to Hell. Yes it means fewer scavengers looking to steal from you (the cold would kill them first); but there is something to be said for a more survivable climate year round.

 

[Admin]

I don't get why you would want a retreat up north where the winter will likely kill you if things really go to Hell. Yes it means fewer scavengers looking to steal from you; but there is something to be said for a more survivable climate year round.

Distance and land costs are part of the reason people go north.

How far south are you planning on buying property? Higher population density usually equates to more $$$ per acre.

 

[Waher]

If I was wealthy enough:

I'd take my chances with a sturdy sailboat with decent fishing capability and a sufficient armory to sink any bastards which try to get too close. With the right on board systems you could live at sea for several years and then have something capable of being beached into a homestead.

 

[namedpipes]

If I was wealthy enough:

I'd take my chances with a sturdy sailboat with decent fishing capability and a sufficient armory to sink any bastards which try to get too close. With the right on board systems you could live at sea for several years and then have something capable of being beached into a homestead.

And what about when the Coast Guard goes feral?

(Actually, I think this is a good idea if you pick the right place to voyage to)

 

[Prepper]

A friend of mine who lives in Nashua bought a retreat property in northern NH, a cabin on 15 or so acres at the end of a dirt road adjacent to National Forest. Spent a couple of months of week-ends hauling his survival supplies and dried food to the cabin. Came back two weeks later and the locals had cleaned him out, though they did leave some of the less palatable dried food I think.

The whole bugout theory is deeply flawed. If the SHTF as a flatlander in your retreat all you'd be is fresh meat for the locals unless you bring an infantry squad with you.

Wow it only took 2 weeks for the locals to descend on it? That sucks.

That is what I worry about most and why I would never stock an uninhabited cabin full of supplies. Once I have the cabin built, what little I leave in it will look like crap and be plainly visible through the windows. Stuff like yellow mattress from a yard sale, pee stained blankets, maybe a self built rocket mass stove, etc. If I ever did leave good supplies, it would be underground well off of the logging roads. And, I haven't figured out a good way to build a root cellar without the building of it going unnoticed.

I'm really not worried about locals once I am actually there though. They tend to want easy uninhabited targets. I make sure I always open carry when there, and do some practice shooting for all to hear on every trip, and leave the casings around.... Whatever necessary to tip them off that some nature loving hippie from Massachusetts meditating in the woods (not that there is anything wrong with that) isn't what they are dealing with.

 

[Waher]

Whatever necessary to tip them off that some nature loving hippie from Massachusetts meditating in the woods (not that there is anything wrong with that) isn't what they are dealing with.

Then they will make the extra effort to be prepared when they ambush you. It would be best if no one ever sees or knows you at the property. They'd be more wary of dealing with a total unknown.

Having a fake visible cabin as a distraction and the rear stuff hidden elsewhere is the best one could do. At least until someone noticed smoke from a fire and then they'd be right on you like a pack of rabid dogs on a three legged cat.

 

[Prepper]

Then they will make the extra effort to be prepared when they ambush you. It would be best if no one ever sees or knows you at the property. They'd be more wary of dealing with a total unknown.

Having a fake visible cabin as a distraction and the rear stuff hidden elsewhere is the best one could do. At least until someone noticed smoke from a fire and then they'd be right on you like a pack of rabid dogs on a three legged cat.

Usually the only people who see me I already know.... The other neighbors that have cabins. I have confirmed they are all good folks. It is the random person wandering through I am a bit more concerned about. I don't usually see them except during hunting season. I am not too worried pre SHTF .... They won't be desperate enough to do anything.

 

[mg42doc]

I don't get why you would want a retreat up north where the winter will likely kill you if things really go to Hell. Yes it means fewer scavengers looking to steal from you (the cold would kill them first); but there is something to be said for a more survivable climate year round.

Let's say you went south via car. Look at all the population centers you'd have to pass through, or near to get to say, Virginia. you'd be running the gauntlet.

I also feel it's best to stay within a tank of gas distance unless you have some means of refueling.

I guess it all depends on what type of S is Hitting The Fan. Is it local, regional, or national? long term? Short term?


most times you'd be better off staying put, but occasionally, it's best just to get the hell out of dodge.

 

[Katie-B]

Why go deep in to the woods when there's a hundred miles of prime oceanfront at a great price? http://www.utne.com/mind-and-body/hole-beautiful.aspx

 

[mibro]

Wow it only took 2 weeks for the locals to descend on it? That sucks.

Might have been three. This possibility actually had never occurred to my friend beforehand and he was more than a bit naive about the whole thing.

I'm really not worried about locals once I am actually there though. They tend to want easy uninhabited targets. I make sure I always open carry when there, and do some practice shooting for all to hear on every trip, and leave the casings around.... Whatever necessary to tip them off that some nature loving hippie from Massachusetts meditating in the woods (not that there is anything wrong with that) isn't what they are dealing with.

I like apocalypse porn as much as the next guy and seeing as we're talking TEOTWAWKI that may not help you. You would want to be the sniper not the snipee and that means familiar terrain and being among people you know. The idea of taking your family to a retreat is only workable if law enforcement and public order remain pretty much intact.

I found a lot of good ideas for realistic planning for what I think is a possible level of social and economic disruption in Ferfal's account of the 2001 Argentina economic collapse. One of the points he made is that being in an isolated rural location made people easy victims for criminal gangs. Being in a big city was not great either. The sweet spot in Argentina at least turned out to be in locations with medium population density - suburbs - where there is room for chickens and vegetable gardens, etc.