DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE BACK TO SHREDDING BRASS

[MaineCWPtraining]

DOD Again Shredding Brass
Friday, 26 March 2010

Immediate action needed!
Halt destruction of military brass!

The following important release from our good friend Gary Marbut needs your immediate attention. Once-fired military brass is being destroyed again and this time the enemy is in our own industry. ATK Techsystem, manufacturers of powder and ammunition is buying up brass from base commanders and destroying it to keep it off of the civilian market.

This scheme is going to need consumer response and congressional intervention to stop it.

Please help to spread the word. Repost this article and link back to it at www.FirearmsCoalition.org, and contact friendly Senators and Representatives asking that they join efforts to require the DOD to sell brass for reloading rather than burning tax dollars to shred it. Thanks to our good friend Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Assocation.

READ MORE

 

[GaryNH]

And send ATK/Alliant Techsystems an email and let them know your thoughts in the meantime.

[email protected]

Gary

 

[lord1234]

ATK shareholder contact
Inquiries from shareholders, securities analysts, and others in the professional investment community
should be directed to:

Jeff Huebschen
Director, Investor Relations
Phone: 952-351-2929

 

[EddieCoyle]

Why would the shareholders want to stop a practice that will probably help their business?

This is a private company that is outbidding their competitors for the brass. Once they own it, they can do anything they want with it, right?

It's a smart move for them.

 

[bfm]

Why would the shareholders want to stop a practice that will probably help their business?

This is a private company that is outbidding their competitors for the brass. Once they own it, they can do anything they want with it, right?

It's a smart move for them.

Yup.

 

[BaldAssCat]

Why would the shareholders want to stop a practice that will probably help their business?

This is a private company that is outbidding their competitors for the brass. Once they own it, they can do anything they want with it, right?

It's a smart move for them.

While it’s true they can buy what they want with their own money and do what they want with what they bought, it’s only a smart move until you piss off your customers.

History says we can’t get the critical mass of people together to speak loud enough to stop politicians from eating away at our rights so I’m not trying to convince anyone that we would be able to get the numbers needed to stop a private company from making money by driving up component prices. That being said, if we don’t let them know that they’ll lose customers if they keep it up then we know for sure that they’ll never stop.

ETA:
All of this assumes that they’re not shredding the brass so they can use it to make new components for their products, in which case I have no gripe with them.

 

[ShadeWPI]

Why would the shareholders want to stop a practice that will probably help their business?

This is a private company that is outbidding their competitors for the brass. Once they own it, they can do anything they want with it, right?

It's a smart move for them.

While I agree, once they purchase it, they can do with it as they like, however how can it possibly more profittable to purchase once fired military brass and shred it to use or sell as scrap brass while out bidding competition who would be processing and reloading it?



If they are truly out-bidding their competition and then shredding the brass, that's their choice, but the concern here would be: Are they really out-bidding their competition or is their bid being given special consideration on a promise to shred rather than reload it.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Are they really out-bidding their competition or is their bid being given special consideration on a promise to shred rather than reload it.

That's the $64K question.

If they're buying it fair and square (which is possible because the brass in those auctions pretty much sells for scrap value) then it's just capitalism.

However, if they're being given preferential treatment of any kind, the practice should be stopped .

ETA: The article claims that ATK made "sweetheart deals" with base commanders. I think this is misleading. ATK made deals with base commanders to get the brass before it goes to auction. That way, the base commanders get the money rather than the US Treasury.

Anybody else can do this too, so in that respect, if someone wants the brass to reload it, they can go to the base commanders and make a deal their ownself.

However, if the quotes from the ATK sales literature are accurate, then ATK can bite my bag:

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

"Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City -- for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass."

"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users."

"To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes." (Emphasis in the original)

"Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case."

 

[KMM696]

Based on the article, ATK appears to be going around Government Liquidations, Inc. (who currently handles disposition of surplus DoD material by auction), and going directly to base commanders. This would not afford anyone else in the public domain the opportunity to bid against them. I thought it interesting that the money paid to the base was going into the base operations money, not the big DoD pot that Government Liquidations puts the sales money into.

This will be worth watching, I think. I would like to see a copy of the ATK brochure that those quotes came out of.

ETA: ATK Press release

 

[Rob Boudrie]

While I agree, once they purchase it, they can do with it as they like, however how can it possibly more profittable to purchase once fired military brass and shred it to use or sell as scrap brass while out bidding competition who would be processing and reloading it?

It's no different that a manufacturer buying their used equipment on the open market to reduce competition for new product, or offering trade-ins on equipment that the manufacturer has no use for, but the existence of which would undercut the market for new merchandise. Buy brass that will be used by commercial reloaders, and you (a) have raw material (presumably cheaper than buying it new), and (b) reduce competition.

What should be of equal, perhaps greater, concern is that a vendor selling to us, the civilian shooting community, is actively marketing the notion of "got to keep the ammo out of the hands of mere civilians" on one hand, while courting us as customers on the other. It would be like Glock requesting that police departments destory used guns to "keep them out of civilian hands" (and NO, Glock does NOT make any such request).

 

[EddieCoyle]

ETA: ATK Press release

Here's the text of that press release (emphasis mine):

MINNEAPOLIS, MN -- ATK is a strong supporter of our armed forces, the shooting sports industry, second amendment rights and all of our customers who choose to reload ammunition.

In fact, ATK is a leader in the reloading market. The dated brochure and presentation have caused confusion in the marketplace and do not reflect the views of our company and will be immediately withdrawn.

As a service to our military customers, we routinely handle demil operations for various munitions and respond to requests from military installations for reclamation and recycling of military items.

Each contract is awarded through the military installation’s procurement process. The installations received fair value for the brass.

ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use.

Amanda Covington
ATK Armament Systems

So apparently, the quotes were accurate, but have been 'withdrawn'. ATK can kiss the back of my bag.

 

[drgrant]

Why would the shareholders want to stop a practice that will probably help their business?

This is a private company that is outbidding their competitors for the brass. Once they own it, they can do anything they want with it, right?

It's a smart move for them.

+1... if they are buying the brass, and only destroying it because they want to, (eg, to recycle it into raw metal) then I don't see what the big deal is here.

ETA: In retrospect... if they are really circumventing the process.... then that's not good- they're not competing on a fair market basis.

-Mike

 

[KMM696]

For anyone wondering "who is ATK and why do I care?", this is the commercial products list from the ATK Armament Systems page

Major Products and Programs — Commercial

Federal Premium and Estate Cartridge ammunition
CCI, Speer, Lawman, and Blazer ammunition
Gunslick, Outers and Shooters Ridge gun care and shooting accessories
RCBS reloading equipment
Champion clay targets
Weaver mounting systems
Alliant Powder and gun powders for sporting re-loaders and ammunition manufacturers
Eagle Industries law enforcement tactical accessories

If they are deliberately trying to reduce the availability of reloadable brass, it would appear to negatively affect some of their own brand's sales, wouldn't it?? I'm sure the sales figures for loaded ammo are much higher than anything RCBS could put on the board.

 

[sig2009]

For anyone wondering "who is ATK and why do I care?", this is the commercial products list from the ATK Armament Systems page



If they are deliberately trying to reduce the availability of reloadable brass, it would appear to negatively affect some of their own brand's sales, wouldn't it?? I'm sure the sales figures for loaded ammo are much higher than anything RCBS could put on the board.

How would it affect their sales! If they buy it and destroy it there is less to reload hence you have to buy factory ammo from them. Besides the article did not say what calibers were being destroyed. I believe the law says that anything above 50 cal must be destroyed. This law came about after the last round of destroying brass.

 

[sig2009]

Found this on line from the ATK brochure as if you guys really think there was indeed an ammo shortage which there was not read this. There was never an ammo shortage! Only a shortage of ammo being delivered to the public!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

“Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City — for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass.”

“Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users.”

“To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes.” (Emphasis in the original)

“Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case.”

It’s time to cure this problem finally with congressional action. The Montana congressional delegation is spooling up to address this issue. Senators and Representatives from other states need to join the Montana delegation in fixing this problem finally with congressional direction to DoD to require that all expended military brass of civilian-useable calibers generated domestically goes through the public auction process. T

his will benefit the U.S. Treasury, America’s gun owners, and the adequacy of the ammunition marketplace.

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com
About Montana Shooting Sports Association:
MSSA is the primary political advocate for Montana gun owners. SAF is a national organization headquartered in Bellevue, WA that works nationally to advance the interests of gun owners. Visit: www.mtssa.org

 

[KMM696]

How would it affect their sales! If they buy it and destroy it there is less to reload hence you have to buy factory ammo from them.

Ummm.....because RCBS and Alliant sell reloading equipment and supplies, respectively. Certainly their overall bottom line would be better from Federal/CCI/Speer/etc., but they do appear to be shafting one of their own divisions at the same time. Ain't life grand.......

 

[terraformer]

So apparently, the quotes were accurate, but have been 'withdrawn'. ATK can kiss the back of my bag.

I've determined that the bag is too good for them and will only allow them to kiss my stink hole. They got caught red handed.

 

[JRyan]

Wow, what a bunch of douches, selling us out to rip us off. Classy.

 

[Bob P]

Too bad, I like some of those brands - but I won't be buying them anymore. Vote with your wallets people.

 

[terraformer]

Wow, what a bunch of douches, selling us out to rip us off. Classy.

The vast majority of legislative abortions begin this way. It's how we will get microstamping, electronically locked gun and other crap shoved down our throats. It was likely how we got some or most of the list requirements and I am sure we are only just beginning to see the depths of reasonable restrictions based on corporate self interest.

 

[drgrant]

I don't really know what to think.

Part of me is disgusted that they would ever write such a pamphlet.

The other part of me says that they were doing it under the notional that the government
was forcing destruction, so they were just trying to capitalize on it....

Still doesn't change though, that even in that case, they were more than willing to just throw us under the bus- the insinuation being that people who reload ammunition are going to use it to shoot at police? what kind of s**t is that?

I would hope some kind of apology or some kind of explanation is forthcoming from ATK, otherwise this has the potential to bite them in the ass, especially if the market ever sees a surplus again. Who needs enemies when we have "friends" like that?

-Mike

 

[Bob P]

I don't really know what to think.

Part of me is disgusted that they would ever write such a pamphlet.

The other part of me says that they were doing it under the notional that the government
was forcing destruction, so they were just trying to capitalize on it....

Still doesn't change though, that even in that case, they were more than willing to just throw us under the bus- the insinuation being that people who reload ammunition are going to use it to shoot at police? what kind of s**t is that?

I would hope some kind of apology or some kind of explanation is forthcoming from ATK, otherwise this has the potential to bite them in the ass, especially if the market ever sees a surplus again. Who needs enemies when we have "friends" like that?

-Mike

Yep. Reminds me of a certain MA gun shop.

 

[Scrivener]

Yep. Reminds me of a certain MA gun shop.

My thoughts exactly.

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

"Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City -- for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass."

"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users."

"To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes." (Emphasis in the original)

"Assurability [sic - the word is "assurance"] for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case."

VERY reminiscent of the drivel A Certain Gun Shop tells the PD's in its fliers and ads.

 

[depicts]

Major Products and Programs — Commercial

Federal Premium and Estate Cartridge ammunition
CCI, Speer, Lawman, and Blazer ammunition
Gunslick, Outers and Shooters Ridge gun care and shooting accessories
RCBS reloading equipment
Champion clay targets
Weaver mounting systems
Alliant Powder and gun powders for sporting re-loaders and ammunition manufacturers
Eagle Industries law enforcement tactical accessories


I'm gong to miss some of their products. I liked the Speer Ammo. Before the Speer, I carried Federal.

I've bought my last round of it though.

Used to buy a lot of CCI stuff, Use my Rock Chucker Press and reload with Alliant powder.

This will make it a little difficult to get exactly what I want, but I'll find other stuff.

 

[BruceW]

Until recently, most used cartridge brass sales were put up for public bid through Government Liquidations, bids available to scrap metal purchasers, foundries processing brass, and specialized cartridge brass processors that reconditioned millions of surplus cartridge brass for sale to commercial reloaders of civilian ammunition, and to civilians for ammunition loading. The steady supply of reloadable brass from military sources has been a sizable and essential component of the currently stressed ammunition market in the U.S.

Although the private Government Liquidations retains a fee for the auction services it provides, the bulk of income from Government Liquidations’ sales of surplus military property is directed into the U.S. Treasury, to be reallocated and appropriated by Congress, as needed.

In a recent turn, ATK has been aggressively promoting sweetheart side deals with military installation commanders for those commanders to sell used cartridge brass directly to ATK (which ATK then renders unsuitable for reloading), the income from which is deposited, NOT into the U.S. Treasury for reallocation by Congress, but into accounts controlled by installation commanders for installation operation.

This pisses me off...

 

[mikem317]

Sounds a lot like what we saw in California in 2008 where they were literally razing brand new homes in order to prop up prices. Or what FDR did in order to shore up agriculture prices by either destroying or buying off farmers.

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

I have no doubt the Obama adminstration is behind this.

 

[Coyote33]

Found this on line from the ATK brochure as if you guys really think there was indeed an ammo shortage which there was not read this. There was never an ammo shortage! Only a shortage of ammo being delivered to the public!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

“Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City — for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass.”

“Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users.”

“To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes.” (Emphasis in the original)

“Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case.”

It’s time to cure this problem finally with congressional action. The Montana congressional delegation is spooling up to address this issue. Senators and Representatives from other states need to join the Montana delegation in fixing this problem finally with congressional direction to DoD to require that all expended military brass of civilian-useable calibers generated domestically goes through the public auction process. T

his will benefit the U.S. Treasury, America’s gun owners, and the adequacy of the ammunition marketplace.

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com
About Montana Shooting Sports Association:
MSSA is the primary political advocate for Montana gun owners. SAF is a national organization headquartered in Bellevue, WA that works nationally to advance the interests of gun owners. Visit: www.mtssa.org

It sounds like there is some funny business going on here, and it is starting to be addressed. This should be an interesting story to stay on top of.

Has this been sent to the NRA yet?

My thoughts exactly.

VERY reminiscent of the drivel A Certain Gun Shop tells the PD's in its fliers and ads.

Currently? A Massachusetts shop? Which one? Got a copy of that ad?

 

[MaineCWPtraining]

NRA yet?

Yessah!

 

[vellnueve]

I have no doubt the Obama adminstration is behind this.

No - if they were behind it the funds would be making their way to DC, not staying in base coffers.