extra heavy 9mm luger loads for ppc?

[paul73]

so, as i got myself a 9mm carbine, i now look at options to bake a custom heavy load for it.

also, quite obviously, it may be baked way hotter than anything for the pistol.
so far i see there is only one heavy option with the 165gr bullets, is it really the heaviest one available? i tried to search but fond nothing above 165gr.

Freedom HUSH Subsonic 9mm Luger 165 gr Round Nose(RN) New

Shoot at subsonic velocities with our HUSH ammo line. 50 rounds of 9mm HUSH suppressed 125.8dB. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in reloadable brass cases. Affordability, accuracy and reliability are built into each HUSH subsonic round we manufacture. Every round of HUSH is...

www.freedommunitions.com

what factual overpressure can the 9mm shell tolerate? the tool shows just about of 40k psi for any loads, which is nothing for the rifle barrel. but what is the practical limit for the brass and primer pocket there?
i would like to push that 165gr bullet to 1100 at least, and calculation shows the 5gr of cfe-pistol should do it. will a regular 9mm brass tolerate 45k psi?

 

[milktree]

are you going for maximum muzzle energy?

 

[paul73]

are you going for maximum muzzle energy?

sure, plus want to try to extend the distance. ideally i want to try to make it close to 300blk performance wise. i wish there was a 200gr option available, would be nice to try to compare.
9mm luger brass does not seem to be any thinner than .223 in the pocket area and the latter holds 65k psi fine. so i am only curious if anyone here already tried to experiment with this.

obviously, this concoction will never be fired from a pistol.

 

[SJan]

USPSA guys load 9mm 124g to about 1300-1350fps to make major power factor. I don't know what the pressure is there. HS6 is a common powder for that, they also load longer than spec to fit the needed powder charge. This in in 2011 pistols.

What are you shooting this in?
Straight blowback system may not like a super heavy load. If it is blowback you should at least add weight to the reciprocating assembly.

 

[paul73]

What are you shooting this in?
Straight blowback system may not like a super heavy load. If it is blowback you should at least add weight to the reciprocating assembly.

cmmg dissent. let`s stick to topic, pls. i am aware of the possible gun implications. design will allow to accommodate that, with an adjustment to springs.

 

[milktree]

sure, plus want to try to extend the distance. ideally i want to try to make it close to 300blk performance wise. i wish there was a 200gr option available, would be nice to try to compare.
9mm luger brass does not seem to be any thinner than .223 in the pocket area and the latter holds 65k psi fine. so i am only curious if anyone here already tried to experiment with this.

obviously, this concoction will never be fired from a pistol.

One big problem you’re going to have is that the case just isn’t very big.

As the bullet gets heavy, it uses up case volume for powder. Are you able to get enough powder in while maintaining max COAL? You’ll want a slower powder to get the velocity you want, to take advantage of the longer barrel.

Also, as the bullet gets longer, you’ll need tighter rifling twist to keep it from tumbling.

 

[paul73]

USPS guys load 9mm 124g to about 1300-1350fps

very peculiar.
if tool does not lie - it is a same area i look at, even more, about of 47k psi. very peculiar indeed.
i only wonder what is the idea about using 124gr and making it supersonic instead of maximizing the weight and keeping it subsonic?
does not feel like a sensible thing to do to me, what is the rational there?

 

[paul73]

One big problem you’re going to have is that the case just isn’t very big.

that is why i look at benchmark instead of hs6, as it takes only 5gr of benchmark to do what needs 8 of hs6. i think it should fit, but, well, will be an interesting thing to try.

 

[paul73]

i also made a mistake - did not swap the barrel to 10" in the original calculation, and with a practically no overload on 124gr it shows almost 1500fps for the 124gr is doable.
not sure if calculator there is truly accurate, though.


and 6gr will do 1200fps for 156gr. seems like it may be the target recipe then, 5.5-5.6gr. an energy is less by a ton, though.

 

[milktree]

that is why i look at benchmark instead of hs6, as it takes only 5gr of benchmark to do what needs 8 of hs6. i think it should fit, but, well, will be an interesting thing to try.

How do the densities of HS6 and Benchmark compare?

 

[paul73]

How do the densities of HS6 and Benchmark compare?

101.7 vs 99.2. not a ton of a diff. i would have to experiment there.
also, it was cfe-pistol, not benchmark, not sure where i got benchmark from. hs6 so far shows way better numbers anyway.

 

[240Geezer]

Having tried max loads with HS6 (mistakenly) I found that they blew out the case in a straight blowback PCC. The gun took it no problem but it did make a mess.
So unless this is a locked breach I would not recommend.
10mm would be my go to on this.

 

[pastera]

One big problem you’re going to have is that the case just isn’t very big.

As the bullet gets heavy, it uses up case volume for powder. Are you able to get enough powder in while maintaining max COAL? You’ll want a slower powder to get the velocity you want, to take advantage of the longer barrel.

Also, as the bullet gets longer, you’ll need tighter rifling twist to keep it from tumbling.

This - not enough volume to create enough gas and not spike pressure through the roof.
300aac: 19.2gn H2O
9mm: 13.3 gn H2O

You want to keep pressure reasonable so slow powder is needed but they are also bulkier. Burn rate goes up with pressure so above a certain level the powder spikes/detonates and no cartridge or barrel is designed for 100k+ psi

9mm luger is a 35k psi design pressure
300AAC is 55k psi

 

[paul73]

9mm luger is a 35k psi design pressure

i think it is actually more like 44k psi, but, will see.

so far it seems there is no source for primed 9mm brass out there? i never cared to reload 9mm before, i have all the setup, dies and measure and kit, but simply never cared nor picked up old brass, and now it is a pickle.

 

[pastera]

i also made a mistake - did not swap the barrel to 10" in the original calculation, and with a practically no overload on 124gr it shows almost 1500fps for the 124gr is doable.
not sure if calculator there is truly accurate, though.
View attachment 952072

and 6gr will do 1200fps for 156gr. seems like it may be the target recipe then, 5.5-5.6gr. an energy is less by a ton, though.

View attachment 952073

Check the model for HS6 - GRT shows how good of a model they have for each powder.
Model quality is extremely important on the edges of the pressure curves.

Another candidate for exciting velocities in 9mm is Silhouette - it's well behaved at higher pressures.

 

[pastera]

i think it is actually more like 44k psi, but, will see.

so far it seems there is no source for primed 9mm brass out there? i never cared to reload 9mm before, i have all the setup, dies and measure and kit, but simply never cared nor picked up old brass, and now it is a pickle.

SAAMI pressure is 35k
+p is 10% higher
+p+ is 20%

So +p+ is 42k but you are reaching the edge of case design - with a tight chamber 44k might be fine, especially in a bolt action. But in a blow back the bolt weight will need to increase significantly to delay movement until pressure drops enough not to rip extractors and cases apart (and spring weight needs to go up to absorb that extra energy from the heavier bolt)

 

[Uzi2]

Not worth the effort or risk. Use a light bullet at faster velocity.

A 9mm PCC functions perfectly well with 115gr and 124gr loads.

I've tried a couple of mags of L7A1 Hirtenberger in my Ruger PC-9 and it seemed excessive. I now only use it in the Uzi subguns which love it.

 

[DW357]

so far it seems there is no source for primed 9mm brass out there? i never cared to reload 9mm before, i have all the setup, dies and measure and kit, but simply never cared nor picked up old brass, and now it is a pickle.

AR has primed 9mm brass for $110 per 1k shipped.

 

[SJan]

very peculiar.
if tool does not lie - it is a same area i look at, even more, about of 47k psi. very peculiar indeed.
i only wonder what is the idea about using 124gr and making it supersonic instead of maximizing the weight and keeping it subsonic?
does not feel like a sensible thing to do to me, what is the rational there?

Gas
More gas to work the compensator of the open division pistol. 115g are sometimes used, but there are even fewer powder options that will make the major PF.

PF is bullet weight in grains X velocity on FPS ÷ 1000. The requirement is 165+ to score Major.
124g at 1350fps is 167.4PF

I did some googling, seems like there has been no testing done to accurately know the chamber pressure of a 9mm major round. Educated guesses range from 40-52k psi.

 

[paul73]

Educated guesses range from 40-52k psi.

i suspect the same based just on the structure of brass and similarity of walls to the .223 round.
but will find out myself quite soon.

it will be quite self evident when primers will start getting pushed out.

 

[whatluck]

Sounds like you want to go to 10mm to me.

 

[Parker Schreiber]

I'm curious as to your application, because this looks like a "just because you can doesn't mean you should" scenario. I run 147gr ammo in my TNW 9mm, including +P self-defense loads. But if I felt the need for a more powerful round, I'd switch to a different caliber rather than exceeding design limits.

 

[paul73]

so, i ordered 165gr bullets, from capital cartridge, next will be the loading trials. slightly cheaper than from x-treme, but due to info below i decided to test other brand first.
an interesting info about this stuff:

----------------------

@DizzyJ I load 165gr 9mm for my subs, love this round. Xtreme is the only one I know that has them, FMJ-RN. This is where mine comes from. For powder, it needs to be low volume as the 165 is a TALL* round that goes deep in the case for the proper OCL. I am using 3.0gr of TiteGroup and they run flawlessly.

*NOTE: The OCL is an issue with SOME headstamps when loading the 165gr 9mm bullet. Cases with thick webs in them will have chambering issues with the 165 as the deep/tall round will PUSH the outer walls outward as it seats to the correct OCL. This will lead to cases not passing a check gauge or thunk check in a chamber and can get "stuck" as the cartridge feeds not letting the gun go into battery. (Fun trying to then rack it out)

The problem headstamps are:
FC
RP
S&B (worst, very thick web)
A USA
Xtreme (yes the very brand of the bullet will not feed correctly with their own cases)

The cases I keep separate that work great for loading the 165gr are:
Blazer
WIN
Speer
Starline

article on load data:
-----------------

Reloading Heavy Bullets in 9mm Luger - Shooting Times

Most people who shoot a 9mm Luger use 115 and 124 grain bullets, since these are the typical

www.shootingtimes.com

 

[milktree]

I honestly don’t think you’re going to get supersonic out of them without breaking something.

look how little volume there is in the case:

 

[paul73]

I honestly don’t think you’re going to get supersonic out of them without breaking something.

look how little volume there is in the case:

View attachment 952273

ahh, no, i do not want supersonic at all, just get to the top level of subsonic.
got also be-86 powder after more research, it seems to be a right one for the task. a de-flashed power pistol powder.
preliminary computations show it should work.
here is its chart. it is a tad faster than power pistol.


"I was doing 165 Xtreme plates round nose with 4.2 grains of BE-86 sat to 1.15 through my 8" CMMG and they were all at around 1000 fps"
so will see where it will get me.

 

[gerrycaruso]

Won't the twist rate determine which bullet weight/length works best? I have more 9mm brass than I'll ever use. Want some?

 

[paul73]

Won't the twist rate determine which bullet weight/length works best? I have more 9mm brass than I'll ever use. Want some?

Thank you. Pm sent!

Another ironic thing, not a huge deal, but I just ordered powder from valley yesterday and this morning they send an email that it is a free hazmat day _today_. Grr.
Really funny how this stuff works.

Twist there will not be as critical as for true rifle calibers.

 

[Mountain]

Seems like a lot of effort to cook up a load that has a high risk of bulging if not blowing cases. As others have mentioned, maybe the barrel can handle it but the brass is what it is. I'd rather not be lined up next to anyone shooting such an experiment.

 

[SJan]

Twist there will not be as critical as for true rifle calibers.

You might be surprised to see how bad 147g bullets tumbled out of the first Gen S&W M&P pistol 1:16 barrels - they changed to 1:10 quickly

 

[paul73]

Seems like a lot of effort to cook up a load that has a high risk of bulging if not blowing cases. As others have mentioned, maybe the barrel can handle it but the brass is what it is. I'd rather not be lined up next to anyone shooting such an experiment.

Cut the drama.

From what it seems the 165gr working subsonic recipe within standard pressure limits is in 4-4.5gr of above mentioned powder I got.