Faster Shooting

[Midnight412]

I'm looking for some help/direction to work on improving my shooting speed. When last target shooting at the range, I put 8 of 10 rounds from my M&P45 (Stock MA compliant with hard trigger pull) into a single hole (all touching anyway) and the other 2 in the 10 ring - This at 7 yards. I can regularly put a full magazine into a 3-4" grouping up to 15 yards.

I recently joined IDPA and have found that my ability to shoot "on the clock" is rather poor - I shot 3 seconds shy of Marksman during the qualifier on July 19 at Harvard Sportman's. So I am still Novice (blah)

From what I am reading, a trigger job would certainly help. Some other things I am wondering is if I am gripping too tightly, or perhaps no enough... which is better for recoil control and sight recovery to target?

 

[Lugnut]

Midnight... action shooting requires trading off accuracy for speed. It's never a bad thing to spend some good time on accuracy. If you don't have accuracy you have nothing to trade off. Personally- after shooting IDPA and USPSA I'd rather see a new shooter focus on good shots compared to see someone that shoots fast and gets crappy shots.

There is one thing that you need to do soon- get the trigger down to about 4-5lbs. That is more than good enough for what you need now. Don't go and get a 2lb trigger.
You can keep everything else the same for now.

Once you do this... you will have a managable gun. You can then focus on getting consistent trigger pulls while maintaining a good sight picture. I humbly disagree with Timber. You NEED to know what a good sight picture is.

Once you start getting good at groups at 50+ feet- and it sounds like you are already- start pushing the times. If you can do 6 shot 6" groups at 50 ft in say 10 secs. Push it... see what you can do at 8, 6 secs, etc... keep doing it. Don't get caught up in perfect shots- find what sight picture you need for getting good shots in IDPA, etc.

Speed will only come when you push yourself... and you've figure out how to manipulate the gun while maintaining a good enough sight picture. Starting with a 45 just makes your work a tad harder.. although the M&P is a great plastic gun... I just prefer a Glock. Let me know if you need more.

EDIT: oh one more thing. Go to practices and ask lots of questions. Work hard and keep at it.

 

[Cross-X]

You know you have truly arrived when you beat Lugnut at a match. He shoots with us Metrowest Tactical at Harvard Sportsmen's Club in Harvard, MA. www.metrowesttactical.com for latest match and practice schedules.

 

[MFP4073]

Slow is faster than you think when participating in action shooting sports. Concentrate on good shots. Speed will come over time with experience and practice. It really doesnt happen over night.

Once you have learned to "call" your shots without actually seeing the hits speed will really begin to pick up for you.

I have also found that shooting steel plate matches regularly will help improve both shooting accuracy and speed.

 

[TheWookie]

Worry about hits...

Whitey627 just hit a lot of my points on the head, but I'll add...

Shoot steel more regularly, it gives you instant feedback and it trains you to move on to other targets, faster. When you shoot paper, you're always looking over your sights for results; it's human nature. Steel shooting is the ONLY way to get faster, in my humble opinion.

New or newer shooters will never be fast and accurate at the same time.

The best times I have ever achieved out of the holster and on target were around 1-1.5 seconds, but that came after many years of training and thousands upon thousands of rounds fired, dry and hot....

I would not worry about speed, it will come in due time the more comfortable you become with all aspects of shooting and your weapon,,, and the more frequent you train with steel on multiple targets.

And always remember these two things:
1. A slow hit is better then a fast miss.
2. Smooth is fast and fast is smooth.

Good luck

 

[Big_Red]

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

 

[M1911]

Dry firing. Lots and lots of dry firing. Use a shot timer with a PAR function when doing dry drills.

 

[Junglerott]

Let the sights tell you when to shoot. Watch your front sight when it comes back on target it's time to shoot again. Over time you will be able to pick up the sight faster. I practice this with a .22 because recoil has no affect on what I'm trying to accomplish and you can do it all day long for cheap $$$$.

 

[Lugnut]

Shoot steel more regularly, it gives you instant feedback and it trains you to move on to other targets, faster. When you shoot paper, you're always looking over your sights for results; it's human nature. Steel shooting is the ONLY way to get faster, in my humble opinion.

Hmmm although there are many ways to train- I'm not so sure about this. When shooting steel- like Whitey said- you should be trying to call your shots- not wait for the steel to drop. In most cases- you should be transitioning to the next target/steel before the steel drops... waiting will slow you down. If you call a bad shot then you need to reengage the steel otherwise transition. In action shooting it's not just about "shooting" fast- it's about efficient transitions and movement.

When I shoot paper I rarely if ever "look" for my results. It will only slow down your transitions to the next shot! If you really focus on your sights before the shot breaks and recall what you see- there is no reason to look at the target. Train yourself to live with the shots you took (without looking at the target after).. it will MAKE YOU focus on what you need to see.

The only exception to this for me is when engaging close and/or easy targets. I'll often times use a TARGET focus- in which case I WILL see the shots... with little focus on the sights.

 

[jar]

The key concept with shooting fast is 'seeing what you need to see to get the hit'. One thing that helped me with this was a box drill. Set up a target with a small aiming point at about 5 yards. Align the sights perfectly and make the best shot you can. Then, adjust your aim so the front sight is 'touching' the rear sight on the left side and make the best shot you can. Repeat with the front blade touching the the right side, level with the bottom of the notch, and with the front sight out the top of the notch. If you make good shots you'll be surprised at how small the group is. Seeing the front sight anywhere in the notch is pretty much good enough to shoot a down zero inside 5 yards or so.

A timer with a par feature is a great way to work on speed too. Try doing a "bill drill" The classic bill drill is 6 shots in the A zone of an IPSC target at 7 yards. You can vary the distance and number of shots as necessary. Shoot it at your normal pace and record the time. Then set a par time just a bit faster than that and try it again. If you don't get all the hits perfect, the time doesn't count.

 

[TheWookie]

I've trained Marines on it, so I KNOW, it works.

Hmmm although there are many ways to train- I'm not so sure about this.

You could have condensed what you said all down to that.

But that's okay, you can have your way. As long as it works for you and it produces results.

Some of my best pistol training is traced back to Bill Rogers, and steel is all he teaches you on.

I invite you to be open and read this http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/philosophy.php

And this - http://www.rogersshootingschool.com/testimonials.php

**And here is another persons two cents on "my" way, best watched with a computer that has good graphics so you can see the drills http://pistol-training.com/articles/school-review-rogers-shooting-school

And then think about "my" way.

Thanks, good luck.

 

[Supermoto]

Max Michel's Triple Six drill will teach you all you need to know about sight alignment, grip, stance, trigger break and reset.
From the holster
6 shots 7 yard
6 shots 15 yards
6 shots 25 yards
add up your time. add .2s for each C hit, .5 for each D 1s for each mike

Steel is only a good training aid if used properly, it is great for developing speed, but can make you sloppy. Shooting small plates at distance will cure this, as will plate racks.

Shooting fast and accurately comes down to grip, you need the gun to return exactly to the same POA everytime, with this you can grab any gun and shoot it quickly.

 

[Supermoto]

When I shoot paper I rarely if ever "look" for my results. It will only slow down your transitions to the next shot! If you really focus on your sights before the shot breaks and recall what you see- there is no reason to look at the target. Train yourself to live with the shots you took (without looking at the target after).. it will MAKE YOU focus on what you need to see.
.

Yep, always call your shots, never look for the holes in paper or steel to fall, shoot with your sights, call your shots and move on.

 

[JimConway]

I agree that "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
The thing to remember is that Slow is still bitching SLOW
In a bad situation, do not spend time worrying about "fast", because you have the rest of your life to make the shot.

Please be sure to do the drills that JAR suggested. Think about the results. At a given range, how good a sight picture do you need. Once you know that, do not do any more

 

[TheWookie]

I'll tell you what, any one here wanna take me up on this bet contact me on my number provided on this site.

Here is the bet - I pay for the cost of his basic level school for any person, male or female, who is willing to go down to Bill Rogers Shooting School and go through his Intermediate pistol course. And if you come back from the course, after having passed as ONLY basic level, and still feel that it was a waste of your time, and that you're not faster AND a much more accurate shooter, then you got a free course on me.

I think Bill charges a grand for the course, with the lodging, but you pay the flight either way.

Bill's only requirement to attend the school is for you to be able to draw from the holster (a real holster not a tric holster) and hit a man sized target (waist up) in less then 1.5 seconds, from 10 yards or 30 feet away. Pretty easy, right. But, if you can't do that from the get go, don't bother contacting me cause you won't make it past day one.

The catch is if you are dropped at any point you pay me back for the cost of the course.

It is impossible for a good shooter to go through Bill Rogers basic pistol course, ONLY leaving as a basic level shooter, and to not make enormous leaps in their shooter ability. The OP wanted to know how to improve his speed. Go see, Bill.

 

[Supermoto]

I'm in

 

[Cuz]

Go to www.brianenos.com and buy his book. Read it and practice what he preaches. Your shooting will improve and you will have a much better handle on what you need to do to get better and faster.

-Cuz.

 

[Jose]

knock your front and rear sights off. spend a month shooting as often as you can, and as fast as you can, using only the thumb on the hand gripping the pistol as your line of sight.

+1,000,000

And read No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan.

 

[jkelly]

Max Michel's Triple Six drill will teach you all you need to know about sight alignment, grip, stance, trigger break and reset.
From the holster
6 shots 7 yard
6 shots 15 yards
6 shots 25 yards
add up your time. add .2s for each C hit, .5 for each D 1s for each mike

Steel is only a good training aid if used properly, it is great for developing speed, but can make you sloppy. Shooting small plates at distance will cure this, as will plate racks.

Shooting fast and accurately comes down to grip, you need the gun to return exactly to the same POA everytime, with this you can grab any gun and shoot it quickly.

Mike,
What do you compare your time too?

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[Supermoto]

+1,000,000

And read No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan.

The problem with not using your sights is that you when you get out past 7-10 yards you can not shoot as accurately while maintaining the same speed.

You can shoot just as fast, if not faster in close with your sights as without, why limit yourself when you get further out

 

[Supermoto]

Mike,
What do you compare your time too?

Respectfully,
jkelly

Grand Master, seven seconds;
Master, eight seconds;
A, 9.5 seconds;
B, 12 seconds;
C, 17.5 seconds and
D, over 17.5 seconds

Max Michel's best run is 5.5 adjusted time. So far I have been averaging 7.5 adjusted

 

[jkelly]

Wookie,
What do you shoot competitively?

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[jkelly]

Grand Master, seven seconds;
Master, eight seconds;
A, 9.5 seconds;
B, 12 seconds;
C, 17.5 seconds and
D, over 17.5 seconds

Max Michel's best run is 5.5 adjusted time. So far I have been averaging 7.5 adjusted

Thanks Mike.

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[TheWookie]

Wookie,
What do you shoot competitively?

Respectfully,
jkelly

Right now, nothing. I just talk about it online...but back in the day I did shoot competitively in the Marine Corps, not THE USMC Shooting Team, but A USMC shooting team, IDPA, NRA highpower rifle, a few DOE handgun/subgun comps. A few sniper comps,,, one at Storm Mountain.

I need range time though, shooting is a perishable skill. But I'll be back, I'm joining the Plymouth Rod and Gun Club next month.... been going in my basement dusting things off. Talking smack online can only get you so far....

You wouldn't happen to be the same jkelly that worked at the Plymouth power plant? I used to work there back in the day teaching in the weapons department. Great view of the ocean they have....

 

[jkelly]

I need range time though, shooting is a perishable skill. But I'll be back, I'm joining the Plymouth Rod and Gun Club next month.... been going in my basement dusting things off. Talking smack online can only get you so far....

You wouldn't happen to be the same jkelly that worked at the Plymouth power plant?

I only ask because some of the shooters you've challenged are really, really good USPSA/IDPA shooters. And if they take you up on your offer it could get costly.

No I've never workd at Plymouth.

Respectfully,
jkelly

 

[TheWookie]

I only ask because some of the shooters you've challenged are really, really good USPSA/IDPA shooters. And if they take you up on your offer it could get costly.

No I've never workd at Plymouth.

Respectfully,
jkelly

Ya, I hear what you're saying,,, but you must not have read and comprehended the links that I put out. Read the testimonials again, and the who's who for who has been/goes to that school. REAL special forces operators i.e. SEALS and DELTA (the cream of the crop, who have BTDT and have gone to every school in the world) and IPSC champions have gone to that school, improved and now speak very highly of it. I'm pretty confident if those guys say that school is THE BEST, that they have plenty of experience to back that up.

I hate to be sarcastic -- I know those guys I'm talking about aren't members, and green -- but they know a thing or two, I think. It seems to me that a few people here think this is the only place a real shooters can hang out.

I invite you to come to my neck of the woods and chat with only pros http://shadowspear.com/ Join the discussion network, see how far narrow minded opinions get you.

And, just for the record, I didn't challenge anyone specific, I put out a blanketed a statement that I still stand by. Prove me wrong. Go there and get worse.

I think EVERYBODY can go their and improve, some more then others.

So, no, it wouldn't be costly.

 

[Lugnut]

Wookie,

You said: "When you shoot paper, you're always looking over your sights for results; it's human nature. Steel shooting is the ONLY way to get faster, in my humble opinion."

and you say:
"....the discussion network, see how far narrow minded opinions get you."


So some of us disagree with you and we're narrow minded? The class may indeed be good.... I never attended a class where I didn't learn something. However the better shooters I shoot with don't JUST shoot steel and it's not the only way to shoot faster. There are lots of great classes out there where the focus is more on USPSA/IDPA sport- which is what the OP was looking for.

 

[TheWookie]

Man talk about being long winded.....

Wookie, You said: "When you shoot paper, you're always looking over your sights for results; it's human nature. Steel shooting is the ONLY way to get faster, in my humble opinion." and you say: "....the discussion network, see how far narrow minded opinions get you." So some of us disagree with you and we're narrow minded? The class may indeed be good.... I never attended a class where I didn't learn something. However the better shooters I shoot with don't JUST shoot steel and it's not the only way to shoot faster. There are lots of great classes out there where the focus is more on USPSA/IDPA sport- which is what the OP was looking for.

I hear ya, Lugnut, my answer to you is that I did try to finish my declaration with a qualifier such as - "In my humble opinion." Because, in my humble opinion, I do think steel will help you get faster. My narrow minded comment refers to anyone that thinks one way is exclusively better then another. I have been in shooting circles where people feel that way, and it bores me. When you questioned my statements on steel shooting I backed up my statements with links to why I think that way, it's not just something I pulled out of the clear blue sky, it's because that's how I've been trained, and "my" trainer and his methods are very well spoken for. But I'm not ruling out paper shooting, I just think steel will help take people to the next level of shooting. But paper can do that, too.

I know it's not really what you're shooting at,, more importantly it's how well you shoot. So if I came across as slighting paper shooters, it was only to emphasize steel.

I'm not assuming paper shooters look over their sights, I have seen it. Maybe not you, but a lot of new shooters do; with steel you can eliminate that issue so you can focus on other things.

Guys, I don't want to get into a pissing contest with any one here, plenty of good people and good shooters around here. I'm not the best shooter in this chat room, by far, and I don't think I am. And I hate to keep throwing my resume out there, but it seems to me that I get questioned on most everything I've said relating to shooting. However, I do admit to being the new guy and being sometimes controversial so maybe I get what's coming to me? Bottom line is I know a little of what I'm talking about, I'm no better then anyone else here, but there is one thing that separates me from most of the members in this chat room -- the diversity of schools, instruction, and other shooters I have been around, all over the country, and world. Compared to most members here. I don't think I'm special, but it's a fact that my experience isn't restricted to the local chat room or gun club. Doesn't mean that I'm slighting people like that, either. I know every group/chat room has their inner circles, and the inner circle here is very strong, and I think that's fine and I respect that. But trust me, for the last time -- I have been vetted in shooting circles as somebody that knows a thing or two.

Good luck guys, I hope to meet some of you someday.

Let's all meet at the White House today and have a beer over it,,....

 

[Lugnut]

Wookie, being controversial isn't always a bad thing... and I think we all will agree that getting exposed to multiple training styles is usually a good thing. So when are you going to a USPSA match? I think you will be impressed what some of the shooters can do... on steel and paper. Cheers

 

[Supermoto]

I know it's not really what you're shooting at,, more importantly it's how well you shoot.

absolutely
It doesn't matter what you are shooting at, it is always faster to know where your shot is going then were it went